Make no Mistake my fellow (ex) Oranjemunders...times they are a changing, and rapidly.... here is a worrying article from todays Gazette, I wanted to comment when I first heard this story 2 weeks ago, but due to it's sensitive nature, thought it wiser to hear an official version.
So the reality has reached O-mund............very sad to see what transpires there
Sick, sick, sick BASTARD/S! To rape a 6 year old child, how absolutely sick your mind must be!? This is one of the things that shocks me deeply, but I would not for one moment blame the parents or any other adult for killing the bastard/s that did it. Most people will tell you - leave it in the hands of the law. The guilty party will only get a few years in jail or even a suspended sentence, but what about that poor child whose life has been ruined? If you leave it in the hands of the law, that child goes through 10 X the trauma again - asked questions by the lawyers etc etc.
The other thing I want to know - how can a lawyer for defence justify himself to defend a guilty party in a case like this where the evedince is clear? The love of money - kill the bastard lawyer to - he is just as sick and corrupt as the guilty party himself!
Stone me for what I have said here. How many of you who want to pick up the stones have lived through a case like this? I have experienced stuff like it for a long time whilst in the police - I know the wounds and trauma of the victims. I know what happens in the courts.
Let me rather stop before I say some more things that I should not.
What a shame. See these things in the papers everyday. Unbelievable what some men can do.
We have several pedophiles in the psychiatry. They're called sick and mostly not able to realy see what they've done. Or they're not able to control their urge... ect.
To me they're all sick. They should all be locked up for ever.
No stoning Dalene .. true words in a way .. the only lawyer I am friends with gave up doing criminal cases as his conscience could not handle it ... Its like the " chemist " from down our road that ahd a full on crack cocaine Kitchen in his home .. he never went to jail cos of "good" lawyering .. I dont like to wish bad on people but maybe his lawyers should have one of their kids end up on drugs and then see ??
@ jnr .. it appears the majority of rape of children in SA and amongst the poorer community has more to do with either the convoluted belief that to have sex with a child will cure HIV , or its a power thing .. or its just a symptom of frustration borne out of poverty , and deteriorating social norms , sad thing is most peadophiles are actually nice to their victims , pulling them into confidence , spoiling them , bonding with them ,,, and then they pounce ... a lot prey on children / underage teens from the poorer communities .. sadder so is the parents sometimes see it happening but do nothing about it as the perpetrator befriends the family as well and plies them with gifts .. lots of times it remains a "silent " crime .. the only one left with damage is the child ...
Message bombed .. part missing heres the entire ..
No stoning Dalene .. true words in so many ways .. the only lawyer I am friends with gave up doing criminal cases as his conscience could not handle it ... Its like the " chemist " from down our road that ahd a full on crack cocaine Kitchen in his home .. he never went to jail cos of "good" lawyering .. I dont like to wish bad on people but maybe his lawyers should have one of their kids end up on drugs and then see ??
@ jnr .. it appears the majority of rape of children in SA and amongst the poorer / black community has more to do with either the convoluted belief that to have sex with a child will cure HIV , or its a power thing .. or its just a symptom of frustration borne out of poverty , and deteriorating social norms , sad thing is most peadophiles are actually nice to their victims , pulling them into confidence , spoiling them , bonding with them ,,, and then they pounce ... a lot prey on children / underage teens from the poorer communities .. sadder so is the parents sometimes see it happening but do nothing about it as the perpetrator befriends the family as well and plies them with gifts .. lots of times it remains a "silent " crime .. the only one left with damage is the child ... yes there are violent rapists that prey on children , but fact is there are the " silent peadophiles " they dont rape they persuade atke advantage of naivety and eventually get their way ..
To me the most important thing about this subject is the protection of children and society. I know all about the arguments of "sozialisierung" >don't know the correct translation, but it's about they way some one is brought up, the way he has lived and still lives, poverty ect < , but that don't help the victem. I believe that the rapist, just like any other criminel, is somehow a victom too. But as I said, it's a matter of protection.
I don't want to see anybody stoned. I've heard these stupid things often enough, but that doesn't help anybody.
Every person in this world can claim to be a victim of some or other "wrong" that has been done to them, or that has affected his/her life in some way. The rich claim that they never had the opportunity to develop an own self esteem and that the overflow of money has bereft them of the self sence of knowing how to earn. The poor claim that they have been robbed of the opportunity to gain knowledge and better norms. The middle class claim the typical "middle child" syndrome of life. Fact = nothing justifies the crime!
All words so true Dalene and Jnr .. there is no justifiying what they do , was merely pointing out known factors that are contributing to this increase , it has never been so prevalent as it is nowadays ... they after all should have some sense of right and wrong .. but yes those are hard facts and form part of the problem ... again we can bounce this one around over and over .. 1 ,there are factors 2 ,there are people with choice ... If they choose to do the wrong then they should be punished accordingly .. In the meantime with the changing face of society we should all be looking about more carefully and taking care of each other and our vulnrerable young ones ..
ugly about child rape ! , does anybody remember the murdurs that took place in O'mund a few years ago ?
Are there still murders in OM? Anybody remember the first murder in OM in the 70's? Two guys at the single quarters got into a fight about something and the one stabbed the other with a screwdriver and then dumped his body off the bridge on the way out of town. Can't remember his first name, but his surname was van Eeden. I actually bumped into his brother about 5 years ago in Secunda. He said his brother had been released from prison in Cape Town a few years earlier but was finding it difficult adapting back into society. I suppose thats what a few years in jail does to you.
Hang the bastards............ plain and simply Hang them. This is something that realy gets me,children are raped and murdered daily.......I'm not interested in the rapist upbringing, poverty ect. nothing justify's these actions. Hang him. Now you can all hung me for saying this,but I do feel very strongly.I'm not even open to debate.
madashell Something like this really p's me off. Hey Michael, may I use the "K" word on the forum? If not everybody should know what I'm referring to. I dont recall any of these incidents before the K people took over. It just proves again that u can take them out the bush, but can't take the bush out of them.
Carl, I must take exception to your generalising racist comments; you cannot blame an entire people for crime and the wrongs in the world - I don't think these sorts of comments belong on this forum. Especially not the reference to an extremely derogatory term which forments intolerance and continues to contribute to a lack of understanding amongst people of different colour. Back to the original topic - judge the person who committed the crime/s and don't blame their race for it.
Ok. I apologise for having offended anybody.
:36_2_24:
off to the dog box Carl, and if you find Koos there give him a good :emot112:
:emot19:
In my job, we train people to capable of doing and "being" several things. We try to teach them they're "full worthy" humans as everybody else. (Hope that was English enough) This means they have the same right, but also the same responcabilty as everybody. There "life backround" is part of their personality, which means I must, as a profesion, know several things (for eg what makes him be a victom) to understand why the person is this way. It doesn't excuse him from what he's done. It just helps to understand and find ways of working with him profesionaly. (as a social worker/trainer)
As I've mentioned further back, we must make sure society is protected. These means take these people out of social life and yet offering a life in dignity. No hanging, no mobbing ect... History shows, this doesn't help anybody. It would have the character of the inquisition. The main purpose of the inquisition was put people away that were politicaly not wanted.
I think that you guys living in Europe have gone soft and have become way to liberal.... thats just my comment, I am in favour of the death Penalty....
yesno
Quote from: Michael Alexander on April 19, 2008, 07:36:43 AM
I think that you guys living in Europe have gone soft and have become way to liberal.... thats just my comment, I am in favour of the death Penalty....
If that would stop such crime i would also be in favour.........
I am doubting that it works
Am i right, the death penality is abolished in SA ???
You are indeed right, No death penalty in ZA, the ANC is way to much in favour of human rights, if you murder or rape, you should lose that right.... Namibia also.. No death Penalty... Botswana on the other hand, like to hang people, a British Tradition..... that works.... Bloody Liberals, wait till somebody murders somebody closer to you....
I'm not starting a fight here...just expressing my feelings!
giverose
That's okay Michael. This subject is full of emotions. It's hard trying to discuss this on a basis of facts. I'm often in a contoversy with colleagues, as most of them are far to liberal for my opinion. They would for eg give a "criminal" a new chance even if they're not sure if the guy is realy under control. That's being stupid.
I trained a guy who had raped a little girl on a playground. He used to grab his mother and sisters in parts of their body in away...
When trying to talk to him about these things he would always turn me down. I believe, that if somebody cannot speak about his delict, he's not done with it.
This guy lives on his own in a town nearby. He is supposed to be getting a new chance. I asked my boss, if he want's to give him a new chance of harming somebody... Need I say more?
Now that is what I call to liberal. We've had several cases of people being criminal again and in some cases ending even in murder.
If one of them "breaks" out of jail (in the rehabilitation the doors get opened more and more...) they send a whole squad (often with helicopter) of police to find him. Geez! Who pays for that? And what for?
If I talk of dignity, I mean these guys must be out of society but treated as humans....
Good point, I guess there's a point where being to liberal, verges on becoming just plain stupid...
I was reading the Scottish Newspaper online yesterday, where they want to "bribe" foreing prison inmates, to accept 3000 Pounds each and a oneway ticket back to your homeland..They say it's cheaper than keeping them in jail.... What a load of crap..... they are criminals...they commited a crime in your country and now you want to pay them a mountain of money.... R45 000.00 and send them home.... thats bordering on Stupidity...
Don't get me wrong - I am a proponent of the death penalty and the punishment should fit the crime. You take a life, you forfeit a life - simple as that! However, it does link to race and crime. The guy who murdered my sister was white and should have fried for it. Death penalty is not linked to race, religion or creed.
Sorry about your sister Cherry. That's always a big tragody for you who stay...
So many people have been convicted to death that were inocent. Nowadays with DNA tests, you can find out more about the "truth". But what is the truth? Psychologists tend to say, the summ of all the fragments never make a whole. You'll always have (at least) a little rest you'll never find out about. Remember. I said to believe it's part of being human to be aware of ones own responsability. And yet there's this factor of what comes from outside. (no excuse as I said)
1. My questions are, is it my right to kill somebody just because I have the power of or by law?
2. Whom will it realy help, except those that feel hate for the criminal?
3. Does it help fight crime?
Frankly, it's a sticky subject Jr. Although there are studies that say that the death penalty does not reduce crime, my view is that every single day you read all over the world and particularly in SA that criminals who have been released/rehabilitated go out and commit exactly the same crime and worse. Sorry, my view is that you just wipe them off the face of the earth but ...
Playing devil's advocate though, there are many cases of people sitting on death row convicted for crimes they didn't commit and many years later DNA retesting has proved this.
I think this is a subject like religion, politics, etc that one has to debate within yourself and make the choice of belief that fits your moral code.
@ cherry
Well said
Now i see that discussion beeing emotional. As mike says, wait till it happens in your family. I think i would be the the first to call for death penality.
My beleive however is , it will not prevent anything on the long run.
Here more time and effort is spent on the criminal then on the victim. All excuses are searched for why he dit what he dit.
We see it times and times again how those monsters are released and do it again and again. Released by the misjudgement of head shrinkers and legal peronnel, Judges, Laywers etc......
It does not help any victim or family member involved
I have no answer to it. It makes me sick thinking of it.
Although I think that justice in this region can be barbaric, I am all for the death penalty in certain cases. For those sentenced to life, it should be LIFE without parole. I don't believe that time behind bars makes things right. Definately not for the victim and their family, and definately not for the rapist or murderer. If they were able to commit such a horrifc crime once, they will do it again. More is done nowadays to reinstate criminals than to assist victims.
That's a point oldman. There's no true solution. It makes us all get sick.
On the Zimbabwe Topic I was writing about being on your way. Learning. You can put it in this topic too. And again: It's easier said than done, but our only chance of improving society. Being open minded and not letting our feelings of hate and sorrow rule our minds. And let me emphasize again. Rehab can be a very dangerous thing. So I'm on your side Cherry.
Quote from: Patricia Lotte on April 19, 2008, 09:15:14 AM
Although I think that justice in this region can be barbaric, I am all for the death penalty in certain cases. For those sentenced to life, it should be LIFE without parole. I don't believe that time behind bars makes things right. Definately not for the victim and their family, and definately not for the rapist or murderer. If they were able to commit such a horrifc crime once, they will do it again. More is done nowadays to reinstate criminals than to assist victims.
That's true Patricia. The highest cost per day in a psychiatry in Germany are spent on the forenic patients. They're spending a LOT more...
The victims stay victims and often very helpless...
Often are victims of rape the rapests of tomorrow.
This subject is realy tough.
That's my point also. Openly on this forum I can ask Cherry who had assisted their family after her sister was murdered? For about 20 years that man freely walked around, then once he was behind bars, he got the better treatment still. Did anybody try to contact them as a family again and offered help or assistance from the side of government or society funds? I don't think so. The guilty party gets the psyciatric help and evaluations - not the victims or relatives of the vitims who are also traumatised just as deeply.
Life sentences. Who pays for that? You, me, and once again - the victim. The worst of all is that the victim or his/her relatives has to pay to protect, feed, house, dress, the healthcare and education the purpotraitor.
I stick to my point - no matter what race or gender - if you commit a crime like this your are not fit to walk amonst human or animal on the face of this earth!
@Dalene, no assistance; my mother to this day does not mention the murder and the direct consequence of my father suffering and dying of a heart attack a month later which the doctor and my family believe was caused due to the grief and stress of my sister's death.
I find it very difficult to reconcile that criminals get fed, clothed, paid (in some instances) and decent medical treatment at my cost - my tax - while the victim's and their families have to just "find closure" and move on with their lives. I do admire those people who can forgive and forget but I am not one of those; as I said you take a life you forfeit your right to life if it is proved that there are absolutely no extenuating circumstances such as an abused child or wife, rape, self-defense and so on.
I will now climb off my soap box and let others continue the debate! giverose - peace offering Carl!
Thanks Cherry, offer accepted. I'm sorry to hear that you were personally touched by the violent society we live in. I know the feeling of losing a loved one myself, and as you mentioned, the "powers that be" don't give a rat's ass for the family that is left behind.
After my Dad's suicide in 1984, CDM wouldn't even let my sister and I attend the funeral in OM. "Sorry it's company policy blah, blah, blah". Come on! What kind of a security risk could a 16yr old teenager and his 14yr old sister have posed to CDM at a time like this?
With all their billions De Beers / CDM couldn't even afford to offer us trauma councelling!!?? What they could do however is give my 18yr old brother the remaining 5 bullets retrieved from my Dad's revolver. "Here, I thought you might want these as a souvenir of your father".
I rest my case.
If someone raped one of my children I would devote the rest of my life to tracking him down and then spend the rest of my life torturing him. For starters, I would chop off his penis and force him to eat it. I am not a christian and I defintely don't forgive and forget, I get even. I sometimes wish I could escape to a secluded beautiful place where you live off the land, don't have TV and newspapers and so don't hear all these horrible things. I tend to put myself in the victim and their family's shoes and feel the anger etc too and I can't get over it. That little boy who was sodomised by a paedophile at the coast a few years ago just before Xmas still haunts me today. I keep thinking what must have been going through his little mind and the pain he must have endured. If I was his parents, I would do something to everyone who had a part in this sick person still being allowed in society and would break him out of jail just to take him somewhere so that I could sodomise him with a pineaplle or something so that he could just feel a little of what he did to that little angel. Sorry but like a few have mentioned, this is a very emotional subject.
Hi Florrie
I think many feel the same
Our legal system however has not found the right way to punish
How about castration, that would be appropriate instead of letting them free and carry on again........
Castration wouldn't help either. These guys want to feel the power over somebody. It's not what we would generaly refer to as sexual arousement.
Now please tell me Boy Georg.....your 6yr old daughter is raped,possibly even murdered........what do you want to see happen? Counsel the rapist?
As you'll see in this subject, we were talking about different viewpoints. One side is what you feel if your a victim or a close freind or relative of a victim. The other side is what helps society prevent crime and makes people feel safe.
I don't think I'll be able to have even half a clear thought as I'm trying to have in this topic.
I love my kids. And especialy when they're so small you tend to feel the protector stronger in yourself. Hope you've got the message.
I GET THE MESSAGE..
Very tough subject. We've had murder, shooting ect in town with people in Rehab programms. So I feel very responcible. Often ready to show my point of view when I think things are being handeled to easiely.
Hey Florrie, Did you ever watch that Tom Hanks movie, the one where he lands up alone on a tropical island? Why on earth did he want to leave it.... that place was beautiful and crime free....... I often think of that movie.... just cannot remember the name right now.....
Michael :sorriso2:
Because there weren't any women there?
OOOps...I hope that didn't come across wrong considering the topic......shame he was all alone
Hey, I'm not talking about Blue lagoon....... :sorriso2:
We all need to take care of our children it's not the old O/Mund anymore
Alfred
alfrid my man,you have the sense and dirrection of all decent men,the dirty twats who hurt children need a harsh leasson in morals my boet,i imagine you boys will sort the problem
Quote from: Michael Alexander on April 19, 2008, 05:20:39 PM
Hey Florrie, Did you ever watch that Tom Hanks movie, the one where he lands up alone on a tropical island? Why on earth did he want to leave it.... that place was beautiful and crime free....... I often think of that movie.... just cannot remember the name right now.....
Cast AwayHis best movie ever.
Castaway... thats the one.... man that place was quite, peacefull........and Akon bursts into sone with "Lonely"...I'm so Lonely......... sobored
No Michael.
I think it was Cast Away, not Castaway. A little game with the words. But maybe that was the "wrong" German translation.
You're right....
I recall that a person who was auto electrical foreman ? at uubvlei - I think his name was Jannie Smit , was murdered just after he returned to OM from leave ?
Quote from: bobbysmith on April 19, 2008, 10:37:08 PM
alfrid my man,you have the sense and dirrection of all decent men,the dirty twats who hurt children need a harsh leasson in morals my boet,i imagine you boys will sort the problem
I'm think I will end up in jail if I had to come across somebody doing these sort of things to innocent, defencless little children, when I'm done with him thet would proberly throw the key away
Cast Away with Tom Hanks was on TV last night seen it for about the 4th Time
Alfred, I feel the same way as you do - as everyone else might have seen from my postings in this topic. I have no mercey what so ever in my heart for perpetraitors who commit these horrific crimes against women and children. I don't care for one moment how people lable me.
I remember being in the police station the day that my father had to give the news to Cherry's dad - his reaction to the shock of the news. I remember so many people and parents and the emotions involved in their cases when stuff like this happened. What I remember most was almost being locked up myself in a case, for the State Prosecutor and I were held in contemp of the court - I swore out loudly at the preciding judge for the sentence he gave to a rapist of an 11 year old girl. Shame on the judge and shame on the juridical system for allowing sh*t like that to happen!
Each and every person who has ever been affected by crime relating to this topic - all my sympathies are with you.
Hang them High!!
It's sad that our legal system places such low value on a human life.
Did u know that you can face a fine of up to R2400 if u'r caught without a TV licence in SA. However, if you knock off the TV licence inspector at your door you can get released on bail of R500?
Now thats a thought,must remember that.
Heaven forbid, but if anything happened like murder to my 3 girls...... The boys on top, the politicians, members of Government better watch out, coz they will find their houses going up in flames, or their car going boom while they are in it....... or even a shooting...not one...but the whole lot.....only when crime affects them...will they understand...look at the deputy Minister in ZA...shoot the bastards.... but thats only coz her best friend got shot.....
yesno
Only when hurt touches home, can a true reaction and comment be made.........easy to say 'blah blah this and blah blah that' but when it reaches your own doorstep - then the gut talks and all hell breaks lose - no second chances and no cosy cell.............
Hey guys! Are you talking about justice or revenge? Do you want to confront the world of hate with hate, or do you want it to be a safe place?
An EYe for an Eye....... just the revenge part....... In the case of the murderer...he will go out and do it again...they need to be stopped....
Do you remember that woman in Germany a few years ago? During the trial of the rapist who had raped and killed her small daughter, she pulls out a gun in court and empties the magazine into the bastard.
...and what happened to the mother?
That was on TV the other day, Name Bachmeier
She had a relative mild sentence.
6 years and released after 3 Years
Some years later she died of cancer
Here an article about it
http://suche.aol.de/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=bde188e481343760&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=Bachmeier&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMarianne_Bachmeier&title=Marianne+%3Cb%3EBachmeier%3C%2Fb%3E+%E2%80%93+Wikipedia&moduleId=matchingsites.jsp.M&clickedItemPageRanking=1&clickedItemPage=1&clickedItemDescription=WebResults
She was arrested at the scene and eventually ended up doing time in prison. Maybe the two Georg's could help out with more info. I think her name was Marianne something or other.
Makes me angry that... her life ruined because of a murdering pervert..... .... shooter
The worst part was that he was a repeat offender who had already had run ins with the law before, and had been deemed safe to live among normal people again.
Jnr..... here's your cue......
Sorry guys, but to me it looks like revenge. Revenge brings new anger and violance. Look at Isreal and Palastine. The keep revenging murder.
I believe forensic is more complecated. Humanity is something so important. It gets me to look at things from all side. As I said before, we are all victoms in a way. This is no excuse for murder. It just doesn't help anybody if you act revenge. Nobody!! Sorry. I'm short of time. Then I don't think any of us will ever be able to close the subject down.
Quote from: Michael Alexander on April 19, 2008, 05:20:39 PM
Hey Florrie, Did you ever watch that Tom Hanks movie, the one where he lands up alone on a tropical island? Why on earth did he want to leave it.... that place was beautiful and crime free....... I often think of that movie.... just cannot remember the name right now.....
Hi Mike, I could live on a deserted island but I would want my hubby and kids with me. I often think about the book where the whole family get shipwrecked, I think my family are very good at improvising and we would make excellent "shipwreckees", can't find the right word. I am not a TV fan and have practically stopped reading the papers too. Decided not to buy the Sunday Times anymore because they fired David Bullard. I honestly think that because I am an introvert and enjoy peace and quiet, a deserted island would suit me perfectly.
Quote from: georg ruf jr. on May 02, 2008, 06:01:41 AM
Hey guys! Are you talking about justice or revenge? Do you want to confront the world of hate with hate, or do you want it to be a safe place?
Georg, you are a better person than me. I will have so much hate in me if someone did something to one of my children, I would spend the rest of my life planning and taking revenge. I am no christian, forgive and forget isn't in my vocabulary, getting even is. I also believe if everyone got even, there wouldn't be repeat offenders, they would be dead or disabled.
There is an article on revenge ... I dont have it on hand .. but it has to do with forgiveness . i know it all sounds high and lofty , almost as abd as the eastern philosophy of the hollow reed that all can just pass through . it may work for a bhudist monk with no touch to real life and its tests and tribulations.. hollow reed does not work for me .. i am a flesh and blood being with feelings ... however the comparison to israel / palestine / eye for eye / tooth for tooth ... Ireland .. war .. retribution upon retribution ... same thing . revenge .. revenge .. revenge .. it solves nothing .. only perpetuates ...
i go back to the Amy Bhiel story , her brutal sensless murder in the townships in the early 80"s .. her parents somehow turned the whole thing around ... they managed to forgive the perpetuators ... where I am actually going is the poison of harbouring thoughts of revenge .. its poison to the soul .. the basic premise of this is to "forgive" the person for the deed done , by forgiving you do not absolve them of the personal resposibilty of their actions and deeds they did . They have to deal with that through normal legal process (justice ) , and if it so happens their conscience ,and further if you believe so ahve to face their maker ... if it so happens to come to the fore .. by doing so create the abilty to release yourself from the toxicity of carrying this hate load .. Just a thought to throw into the pool ??
@Sandy and when they show no remorse, but sit in court laughing and smiling as if the whole thing is a joke....
@Florrie, I only read the SUnday TImes for the business section and David Bullard...... I have read it for a number of years now...... and notice how things in it have changed..... cheers David.....
Perfectly understood .. I still dont knnow how Amys parents got it right .. we are indeed primitive beings just below the surface .. so yes revenge is actually a normal call when one of our own is hurt or killed .. we can draw parralells each time .. the laughing in court with no remorse is indeed a valid one .. one would want to murder the person ...and sadly so lots of the time the "system " lets the victims down .. the premise I am getting at is that for a person to be able to move on with life then such an unusual step has to be considered or else the memory can cripple you for the rest of your life , that is unless you got to secretly extract your revenge/ justice without being caught ( Aah !the perfect system )
I know one thing and that is that ' the world is round and anything you do wrong is going to come around again and get you from behind " I take the case of Uri the russian he had quite a reign of terror going on here in CT .. seemed untouchable by the law due to good lawyering .. he got it eventually .. I have had circumstances where i have walked away from something and said to myself eg : one guy with his cruelty to animals .. I challenged him .. in true gangsta style he challeneged back .. I did a quickevaluation of situation .. coud grab him by head smash his face into the wall .. result .. retribution .. I wouod not be safe as he and his pals would be after me ... left it with the thought of the world is round was not easy as i felt like a coward at that moment .. he died a couple of years later in an accident .. slowly and painfully as they were trying to cut him out of his wrecked vehicle .. 2 hours of intense pain and knowing that his life was slipping away ... begging .. He had his time of the world goes around ... so if the one system fails then maybe the other one of the divine retribution might do it sooner or later ??? Whoo man life is indeed not easy ....we have to make the calls and hope that they are the best at the time ...
It's all a matter of dialektic. Learning together. Being on our way.
Think of Europe after WW2. Think of Europe after the fall of the iron curtain... ect.
society only has a chance if we learn to understand and find peace with each other. Revenge let's repeat history again and again...
I think Sandy nailed it with his last post. Karma will catch up with these people sooner or later, in ways they don't expect. Call it Devine intervention if you want, somewhere out there somebody is watching, and no crime will go unpunished, whether it's in this life or the next.
Quote from: Carl Wrbka on May 02, 2008, 05:16:47 PM
The worst part was that he was a repeat offender who had already had run ins with the law before, and had been deemed safe to live among normal people again.
I would say the person (s) that set him free due to wrong judgement, should be taken to reponsibilty.
They would in future be more carefull with the judgement.
If you fail and cause such disasters in your job, they will also have you.
But these are people from the medical trade, feel like little gods, you can not get hold of them
The same counts for justice.
We saw wrong judgemnt 2 days ago in Hamburg.
Two demonstrations wer banned, a court ruled against the banning. Now just look what happened then.......
I dont need that kind of freedom, when they made our constitution and gave the rights to demonstrate, they had different thoughts about it.
I could carry on with many examples..............
When my freedom and safety is worth less then the freedom of those choatic parties then we have lost the battle for a better world.
All that sweet talk will not help.............
I have spoken and want to be heard !!!!
Nothing to do with hate and revenge, just plain common sense i would say.
Different Generation i guess
On the front page of the weekend Argus .. The face of a double killer ...Heinrich van Rooyen .. raped and murdered two girls in Knysna over 2 and a half years ago .. there has been a long drawn out case with lots of "good" lawyering trying to punch holes in the states case with technicalities . the lawyering continued despite the lawyers seeing an overwhelming amount of smoke that would indicate that there was indeed a fire .. well all the "good" lawyering could not get him off .. we have one of the few cases where fair justice is done and he has got a 25 yr sentence .. it should have been doble that for the two lives .. but at least the system did not let down the parents of those girls .. what amazes me is how a lawyer can defend someone when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence ?? on the counterside .. the fred vander Vyfer who was aquitted of bludgeoning his girlfriend to death .. the cops were sloppy did not do a good job and where in fact downright dishonest to the point of planting evidence in their haste to get a conviction .. if it were not for good forensics he would in all probabilty have gone to jail with the surface evidence putting a lot of doubt on his involvement .. but then who knows ? Yes Georg they .. the lawyers .. sloppy judges and law enforcement shoulld indeed be held accountable if a travesty occurs where a dangerous person is let loose on society again ..
Sad fact is no system is perfect .. but a bit more accountabilty would help create a bit more balance ..
If that does not work out .. then unfortunately we have to move on from the tragedy , rebuild our lives , no mater how difficult it may be feeling cheated out of seeing justice done .. and put ones faith in the divine retribution ,, again not garuanteed ,, but seems to happen enough ..
this topic evokes a serious passion within me,we all have our individual thoughts ,you and me are entitled to our thoughts and beliefs,i am of the firm belief that if a person takes anothers life and is proven in a court of law ,they pay the ultimate price,sandy you have no children,i have no children,imagine if your most loved one was murdered/raped or both,i cant think ,with raw emotion ,you going to invite the perpertrator around to the pub for a wee swally,i would,given the circumstances,shot gun in hand,get my drift ,i would do what society cant or wont do,for fear of infringing the rapist/murderers human rites.bollocks to their rites,train your thoughts to the victims and those who are left to pick the pieces up,my heart goes out to cherry allcock and her family,this happend in our mids, also to the other people who have not had closure,i do not believe that these persons can be rehabillated,try as you mite,it cant be done.ive worked with murderes,arsinists,rapists and pedeophiles,no amount of so called TREATMENT,works,im with my good friend FLORRIE,if it happened to you,you would change your stance,georg jnr ,ive read your very liberal posts and together with sandy i take on board your persieved understading of these disturbed perpertrators,i feel you are excluding the real victims and their families and loved ones
Bobby, its amazing how much your life changes when you have a child. Please believe me your views on many things change when you have the responsibility of another life in your hands. I cannot and do not want to even begin to imagine what I would do if anyone had to harm my child. I really do not know how people cope after having lost a child, let alone to a murderer or even having to deal with their child being a victim of rape. I do not think there were be enough people to hold me back from taking revenge. I really do not care a ticky if anyone agrees with me on "an eye for an eye" or not. Until its happend to you I believe that one then should rather not try and pass judgement or debate what is right or wrong.
Quote from: Carl Wrbka on May 03, 2008, 04:06:45 PM
I think Sandy nailed it with his last post. Karma will catch up with these people sooner or later, in ways they don't expect. Call it Devine intervention if you want, somewhere out there somebody is watching, and no crime will go unpunished, whether it's in this life or the next.
Yepp!
Quote from: georgswa on May 03, 2008, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: Carl Wrbka on May 02, 2008, 05:16:47 PM
The worst part was that he was a repeat offender who had already had run ins with the law before, and had been deemed safe to live among normal people again.
I would say the person (s) that set him free due to wrong judgement, should be taken to reponsibilty.
They would in future be more carefull with the judgement.
If you fail and cause such disasters in your job, they will also have you.
But these are people from the medical trade, feel like little gods, you can not get hold of them
The same counts for justice.
We saw wrong judgemnt 2 days ago in Hamburg.
Two demonstrations wer banned, a court ruled against the banning. Now just look what happened then.......
I dont need that kind of freedom, when they made our constitution and gave the rights to demonstrate, they had different thoughts about it.
I could carry on with many examples..............
When my freedom and safety is worth less then the freedom of those choatic parties then we have lost the battle for a better world.
All that sweet talk will not help.............
I have spoken and want to be heard !!!!
Nothing to do with hate and revenge, just plain common sense i would say.
Different Generation i guess
True words oldman!
Has anybody ever imagined what it could be like being in the situation of being allowed to kill the person that killed your beloved?
Just you and the murderer eye in eye. All on your own in a room nowing this person has excepted his destiny and will not try to defend himself.
This is a very emotional debate. The experiance I've made with emotional debates was (including myself obviously), if we are many we are right.
This is a state we had in Europe in the 1930s. People believed right was on their side, because others had done things to them (Versailles treaty after WW1 for eg).
After WW2 so many people felt so ashamed. It started off with the belief of doing right. Justice seemed near. The Arier thought they were higher than anybody else in the world and all "dirt" had to be destroyed. German soldiers, the SS, Gestapo ect. moved across the country and then Europe "practicing" justice. Rape, murder, looting ect. Their belief was that this is right. They felt they were on the safe side.
My comparison is the belief, not the devestation caused. The belief that I'm doing right...
Our Animal instinct takes over.... your wife and daughter has just been raped and murdered, their naked, limp bodies lie in a pool of blood, your wifes eyes still warm, wide with fear....your daughter, oh your precious daughter.... how she must have suffered.....for a brief moment you could hear her as an innoccent child, playing in the garden, down by the tree's, how you grabbed her unprotective hands, swinging her around....swinging her higher and higher , her laughter growing with each swing.....you... her father, her protector...her knight ... and now she lies half off the bed, her long brown hair, now matted in her rose blood..., head hanging over the bed, lifeless....laughter forever silenced.... Yet, you had the culprit, there he stood, defencless now......since you wrestled the firearm from his murdering red covered hands..... he stands shaking, knowing what he has done......panicking what you are about to do........
Now are you gonna be a liberal european and call the liberal cops....so that the liberal courts can give him a liberal sentence with a liberal phsycologist....to reform him...or are you gonna plug that fu*ker slowly...letting him feel....letting him feel that hurt...that they must have felt......
pls
I think there are certain circumstances where no human being should be expected to forgive and let justice take its course. You would a a coward to just sit back and not take things into your own hands. Your life is shattered by the loss ... what more would you have to lose?
I'm not talking about emotions. I'm trying to see facts.
The situation you describe is what all people experianced by the aggresor Germany in WW2. In return Russians Americans ect. revenged themselves on German women. Did that realy help anybody???
All men, no matter what nation, came home as loving husbands and fathers. Who were the looters, murderers, rapists?
Do I know what my grandfathers and their brothers did in war.
These things that happened here, happened under certain sercumstances. Just the way everything happens under certain sercumstances.
I'm just trying to understand. Don't want to take the blame off anybody.
When I hear news like the story of the Austrian Father, I always feel very sorry for the victoms. Often I just try not to take notice of what's in the papers. Especialy in this case, it's so unbelievable....
Those now are my feelings. They have nothing to do with my opinion.
If all humans would live according to what they felt is right, we would have anarchy. Anarchy always get's you to have a dictator in the end. Humans are in the end like animals. The strong will survive and the weak do as they're told. Also something we've learned in European history in the 20th centuary.
I go back to my words in an earlier posting << Whoo man life is indeed not easy ....we have to make the calls and hope that they are the best at the time ... >> and << Perfectly understood .. I still dont knnow how Amys parents got it right .. we are indeed primitive beings just below the surface .. so yes revenge is actually a normal call when one of our own is hurt or killed .. >> Or Dunja saying << Until its happend to you I believe that one then should rather not try and pass judgement or debate what is right or wrong. >>
I have been in a situation where the cops had to restrain me from skewering a lowlife with a sword cos he had hurt someone I loved , and I was about to do it right in front of them when i caught up with him at the same time as the cops ?? I was frothing mad .. Animal instinct ?/ yes indeed .. not ashamed of it .. only problem is where would it have got me .. ?/
This is a highly emotive topic with many views that if one reads carefully into all ultimately actually head in the same direction and I think at times we pick up the thread of what hits us in the gut ..
Jnr .. the past is the past in what happened in Germany many years ago .. hopefully there are enough laws in place to prevent a recurrence .. same in this country . it too has a somewhat shameful past .. but i am not going to feel guilty or carry a guilt that will prevent me from wanting to see good fair and appropriate justice prevail ..
On the ' forgiveness" like said i dont quite know how Amys parents did it , but if it worked for them then so be it .. they saw another wisdom in not letting it cripple them ,, the perpetrators got their day in court , and they did everything in their power to move on and not let it cripple them . If all else fails then I believe there is the divine retribution of the wheel turns ...
Simple premise and possibly a closure to this one for me is ..
Good laws .. good justice system , responsible lawyering , appropriate sentencing .. accountabilty of the law enforcement , judges , lawyers , even those that commit perjury .. cos thats where a lot goes wrong ..
.....and as time goes by, the younger generation forget, then we change the laws......then it starts all over again.... Man has never learned from his past..... we don't care for the future...we live for now.....
Yes we see it over and over .. the younger generation forget .. it remains for those of us with good conscience to keep on pushing for things to be right .. for those with kids .. instill good moral values in the hope they carry them forward .. for those without make your voice heard in whatever way you can .. and Mike all we can do is live in hope , its one of the enduring qualities of mankind ..
Extremely emotional topic - I personally believe Karma will get you in the end...........
Yepp, wonderfull thing this Karma. A few good examples: Jeffrey Dahmer - Beaten to death with a mop handle whils't in jail, Rashied Staggie - Burnt alive by the parents of his victims, The guy in Delmas who cut his dog's head off with a chainsaw - Died painfully in a car accident a week after being convicted, etc etc
The nice thing about the legal system in SA is what happens to convicted rapists and child molesters once they arrive at prison. :bagno1: Carefull now, don't drop the soap...
So where does this Karma guy live? He seems to get around quite a bit...... laughpoint
Karma aint no guy - Karma is female...........that's the only way to get things sorted - put a woman in charge
Think of her as a kind of female grim reaper tidying up the loose ends where justice is not fairly done ... knocking the soap out of the hand of the lowlife in the shower , whispering into the ears of other lowlife to do harm to the lowlife who has not had proper justice meted out to him .. your hands dont get dirty , its taken care of .. Had to present my humorous look at her going about doing the business that is not done right as the content of this topic actually wears heavy on one ... I leave it there ...
What goes around - comes around............
does any onel remember the rape in Omund n abolut 1979? It was at a house in 7th Ave. It was horrid, The kids and l stayed with Auriel and we both sh........our selves as Keith and Benny were in the Commandos. The worse thing was it was all hush hush,so we never knew if anyone ever got caught!!!By the way Mike have they got the MONSTER yet of the little Kiddy??? Am with Florrie and Bob about as to what should happen to the MONSTER!!!!! Awaste of space oxygen stealer!!! madashell
Pam, this is all news to me...I'll let the old timers fill in the gaps.... There are conflicting reports.... some say he has been and already sentenced...but I'll make a few enquirie's 2morrow
@ carl.....
that is why there are 26s' and 28s' and also soap on a rope.......
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 05, 2008, 05:31:55 PM
So where does this Karma guy live? He seems to get around quite a bit...... laughpoint
Here he is in action again. A good example of Mr Karma in action.
The clip is only about 350kb so it shouldn't have a problem on slow connections.
Good explanation of Mr Karma
It will get you unsuspected
instant karma .. she was indeed a busy girl that day .. even got to drive truck ..
many thanks for your support pam,i remember a family of spackmans in my time in oranjemund,can you please tell me a little more about your your family so as to jump start my fading brain,it is great to visit the recesses of the mind,regards to you and the family xbobby
hi there Bobby,we lived in Inner Cres for 10 years and for 2 years at E27/11th.Arrived in O/M in 1970 and left in 1982.Keith was a Welder/Boilermaker.Did Karate with Iggy van Greunen and later did sailing and Shooting.Was with Benny Willson when he shot his foot!!!!!Also have 2 daughters Faye and Sonia. After leaving O/M lived in Capw Town for 12 years,have been back in U.K for the past 14years. How about you guys are you still in O/M and also your family........Also need to have o jog of the grey matter!!!!!!! Pam
hi pam,i am living in the uk too,county durham,i was born in om,left in 1972 after my dad passed away,them days the family had to leave town,im 50 this year,cant believe it,i was 14 yrs old when we left,so my memorie serves me rite,i do remember the spackmans,if you dont mind me saking ,how old are you,my father was harry smith,apprentice instructer at the tech school,i have three sisters and younger twin brothers,[remember we didnt have tv them days]our old folks found their own entertainment,ha ha
Hi Pam, I remember the incident where Benny Wilson shot himself in the leg. It was during a speed shooting excercise at the gun club. Benny pulled his gun out from it's holster and accidently squeezed the trigger at the same time. I was in hospital at the time having my tonsils removed and Benny was placed in the room next to mine.
Again in the papers .. another convicton for rape .. the little girl they called the little rock .. she was raped and then set alight and left for dead .. he lowlife got 28 years .. not enough .. but yes the system appears to be working more and more .. make your voices heard .. do like i do write to the newspapers .. the good lawyering must stop in the face of overwhelming evidence .. i repeat .. we ahve hope and if we give up on that well ??
Think of a person who could have been a victim .. she today is a life skill facilitator .. Alison .. she was raped .. throat cut and disembowelled by the two guys . she crawled out of the bush holding her guts and cut throat , even wrote the name of the one guys name she remembered in the sand while laying at the side of the road .. her one message is .. be careful be observant ,, look out for each other .. it applies in so many ways .. actually I dont quite know what I'm trying to say here except that we must strive to be in the face fo whats happening more caring members of society and try to make the system work ...
I read her book, heard her interviewed on radio and even had the pleasure of attending a talk she did, for she was on the circuit as a motivational speaker for a period of time, don't know about now..........she is truly amazing - but then you have picked out many examples of people who have been inspiring in their ability to learn from their atrocities to be real survivors instead of victims.
Rape is a crime of violence (and power) - and most often doesn't result in death, I do believe there may be an adjustment in the opinion of the courts leaning more in the favor of the woman, instead of just trying to proof that she brought it upon herself.
The difficulty lies in determining who the genuine cases are from the attention seekers and get even brigade
Difficult one, don't get me started on the new crime of date rape with the use of rohypnol.
ref pg 1. Carl Wrbka . Talking to old timers . Van Eden was caught redhanded stealing the victims "transistor radio " in the single cauters . Van Eden then stabbed him with a screwdriver , and according to the old toimers , hid the victim in the scrapyard south of the Jowells gerage . hours later he took the uncocious victim , then tied a large stone around his neck , and threw him in the river . the cause of death was drowning and not from the screwdiver stabwounds.
Thanks Cherry, this forum cannot be used as a platform to promote bigotry, sure you may air you opinion, but within reason, bearing in mind most of us have black friends and partners.... it is easy to blame "them" for everything, but we all know that you get bad genes in all population groups and if you happen to live in a society where a certain ethnic group makes up 80% of the population, you will obviously see that their group will have the largest percentages of any issue, ie. crime, poverty, hiv etc.....
This topic is about rape of a minor in ORANJEMUND . If anyone wishes to continue to debate the political aspects, move it to the General discussion board under anything goes.....
Well put Michael. After all, a bigamist is a fog in Italy, and that would belong in the weather section. :emot19:
:36_2_35:
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 23, 2008, 06:31:07 PM
Thanks Cherry, this forum cannot be used as a platform to promote bigotry, sure you may air you opinion, but within reason, bearing in mind most of us have black friends and partners....
Sorry Mike, could not follow you here, i dont find that post from Cherry ???? Wanted to form my own opinion
Regardless of what it could have been, we must all bear in mind not to make any racist statements althought i am often temped to. I for example had copied a Joke from our board and posted that in USA. Got nasty mails as beeing a racist. I deleted that Joke althought to me it was funny.
Suggest to keep sticky stuff in PMs......
I agree with you Snr, the temptation is strong sometimes, especially when you live in the "new" SA. I suppose we'll have to just hope for a solution to be found soon which will suite everybody. I don't forsee it happenning in our generation though.