I got one of these slide shows about the holocaust .. its content about how the Americans made sure that enough pictures were taken etc so that the world could never forget the extent of this human rights travesty .. graphic pictures with captions and yes sayng we should never forget lest mankind repeats .. ( and yes we do get repeats on different scales and scenario .. xenophobia here in SA .. ethnic cleansing in african countries , bosnia etc ..
The one clip mentioning this .. now I wonder is it true .. have the Brits as they have pandered to the loony left in banning Noddy etc ..now pandering to minorities who started off as guests in what still is a predominantly anglo saxon protestant country ?? are they sacrificing their moral stand to pander ..
Its the interenet so many untruths are circulated as well so I put it to the members who are staying in the UK .. is this indeed true ??
Fact is the holocaust did happen , an atrocity of that scale could not be made up and if this is true then the authorities in the UK are doing their folk a huge dis -service
SANDY! tHIS IS NOW GOING TO FAR..... THE BRITS ARE GONNA SCREW THEMSELVES(IF THEY HAVE NOT ALREADY) BEING SO LIBERAL.......
Uttter tosh this..... Man, it's not surprising all the anglo saxons are heading to OZ and New Zealand.....
are-you-there
What about all the Brits that lost their lives in WW2......?
shooter
Seems they have forgotten that too ??
It's not surprising that the National Party is making a comeback there..... But , I fear it is too late......... the damage has been done, glad to be living in Namibia......
36_1_72 BierSuip
Hi Guys, Holocaust very touchy subject to me espespialey [spelling?] Are the brits now bowing down to the ''Slams" now.What do they want now? My mom lived her last years at an old age place and one of the people i met there had the tattoo on her arm so to me it is very real. One of the people you work with,Sandy, and you know who believes it never happened.
Hi Guys,
Sorry to disillusion you, but that picture was not of concentration camp victims, it was taken in Dresden the day after Allied aircraft had destroyed the city by fire. The giveaway is the damaged buildings. There were no double-story buildings in the camps. You'll find similar pictures on a Google page of Dresden photos taken after the raid. Several hundred thousand civilians died in the Dresden raid - that was really a holocaust (i.e. death by fire). The real crime here was that it was an unnecessary raid - it was a defenceless city, there was no air resistance and Germany was already on the point of surrender. The bombing was carried out for no military purpose other than to satisfy Allied egos.
Re the "Holocaust", I know of no-one who denies it, most such people object to the fact that the term has been hijacked to serve the purposes of only one group of victims.
There were in fact a total of 55 million dead as a result of WW2 - and here is the shocker - of that total some 15 million German civilians died AFTER THE WAR at hands of the Allies. That was the true Holocaust. For an in-depth background on the history, read "Gruesome Harvest" by Ralph Franklin Keeling.
If anyone finds this subject of real interest and not simply as an ooh-aah passing phase. Google the following:
DETERMINED STARVATION POLICY FORBADE EVEN PRIVATE RELIEF
http://www.nazi- lauck-nsdapao. com/eng-uk- 008.htm
See also: Allied bombing of Dresden.
As for the "Slams" as Michael so engagingly calls them, we've also been fed a diet of hocus-pocus by the Neo-cons on that subject, the idea being to soften you up enough for another war.
But be warned, this subject is sickmaking. It will destroy your illusions as to who are the good guys and who the bad guys, and uncover a few of the lies that have been fed to us over the years. Instead, better go watch a Disney movie.
You'll sleep better at nights.
Regards to all,
Bob.
Its the interenet so many untruths are circulated as well so I put it to the members who are staying in the UK .. is this indeed true ??
@ Bob .. note the comment in blue ..No and not dissillusioned .. as I questioned is it really true that any reference to the holocaust has been removed from the UK curriculum to satisfy those that choose to pretend that it did not happen ( to satisfy their own ends as well ) cos if so then its a truly sad happening ..
I have colleaugue at work who denies it happened .. he even has books that try to disprove it ...I have told him that its irrelevant if one life or 6 million lives were lost to a twisted ideology ,, either way its sick ..
With reference to the slide page posted , I too had doubts because of the wrecked buildings.. but the total is about ten pages with definite pictures of stick thin corpses piled up , people in the concentration camps as well , but that page had the reference to the UK on it Maybe I should have posted all the pages of the slide show to pull more relevance ...
Regarding the comment slams .. we all have private feelings about some people as they too would have about us .. better to keep them private otherwise one ends up with tit for tat slams .. infidel retorts flying back and forth ..
and yes war is a sickmaking and touchy subject .. atrocities from both sides ..and yes when its all over its sometimes difficult to know who the good and bad guys are .. no illusions there ..
the topic content was " is this indeed true" .. and .. and the follows on being have we forgotten or are we in the process of forgetting what a horrble war it was and that should be the only relevance ..
Sandy!! I think like all rumours there is a ring of truth some wear !! below was coped from the Internet and as you can see by the date its old news.
Holocaust Rumour
November 10, 2008 ยท 1 Comment
I received an email chain yesterday about the Holocaust, the extermination of 6 million Jews by the German Nazis in World War 2. The message reminds us not to forget this tragic historical fact, especially in the face of Holocaust deniers around the world.
However, the possibly good intentions of the author(s) is seriously undermined by a huge error in the presentation. It claims, "Recently, the U.K. erased the Holocaust from the British School curriculum because it offended the Muslim population beliefs that the Holocaust never took place." This assertion is categorically false!
And we all no the Internet don't tell porkie pies................... No1 image04
Hi Frank .. too true ... You most probably got the same slide show ... and yes the intent was good ,, but had the same niggling thought about it as it was not well put together ... and yes it was undermined by that very error ... so what I did was pose it as a question to the site members in the UK to try ascertain the truth .... past is past ... errors of the past should not be repeated .. sad fact is mankind has a way of forgetting ... so lets just use its albeit dodgy content as a reminder , forget the comments of who hijacks these happenings for their benefit .. another sad fact is all sides will do so ... so many agendas ... I refer to the denialsist I personally know ,, he remains a friend despite his belief , thats his choice and yes he has to answer for that one day so I leave it there ... evil is evil and should not be perpetuated ..so lets leave it there and hope we never again see it happen ...
A thread from a quote ( cant remember it well )
EVIL DOES NOT ALWAYS PRESENT ITSELF WITH TEETH AND CLAWS BARED ..
IT CAN ALSO BE INSIDIOUS AND STEALTHY , SLOWLY ENTERING THE REALM OF GOODTHINKING PEOPLE .
ERODING BELIEFS ETC ETC...
THE MESSSAGE HERE IS FOR US ALL TO USE OUR CONSCIOUS CONSCIENCE AT EACH STEP AND EACH LIFE DECISION WE MAKE ...
Hello Sandy!! everything we see and everything we hear is not always what it appears.
Last week in the papers and on TV it was announced that they were going to release Abdelbasset Ali al-Megrahi the Lockerbie bomber
then later on this appeared.
Lockerbie bomber's release 'delayed by pressure from Hillary Clinton'
The man is EVIL and should be locked away for the rest of his LIFE and we as a society will have to bare the costs.
There are people who will say NO the Death penalty is the only way.
I watched a program the other night a brother and sister killed one child and maimed the other child (drugs of course) the
brother was sentenced to death, but only if HE requests that it should be done.
Jury gives Beau Maestas the death penalty, sister cuts a deal
Beau Maestas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There have been 11 of the 12 executions in Nevada were the prisoners have asked to be executed
Perpetrators, collaborators, bystanders, victims: we can be clear about three of these categories. The bystander, however, is the fulcrum. If there are enough notable exceptions, then protest reaches a critical mass. We don't usually think of history as being shaped by silence, but, as English philosopher Edmund Burke said, 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'.............Frank
Poor old Queenie, she must be wondering what the heck just happened. During her shift England when from having her flag flying over a sizable chunk of the globe to a little island that is even confused about its own identity.
I'll never forget a placard that an Aussie spectator was holding up at one of the Ashes tests a few years back. It read "We may have lost the rugby but you lost Hong Kong!"
Hi All,
This thread has certainly jumped around a bit from Sandy's orginal post, n'less it's all grist to the mill of understanding. It's good to read the various contributions, each one adds a little bit to clear the picture.
To go back to my original point, there are no "holocaust deniers", that is a word coined by special interest groups to switch off critical thinking, along with other emotionally loaded words such as "terrorist", "anti-semitic", "racist", "nazi", "fascist" etc. Throw any one of these into a conversation and the user has done two things: smeared the other side so that any further discussion appears to be either biased or "evil" (now there's another emotionally loaded and equally unhelpful word) and brought the debate to a stop, which of course is the purpose of these words.
For example, would you really want to waste time listening to a fascist or a nazi, or worse a terrorist or anti-semite talking? To begin with, what could they possible add to what you already know, and in any case with our present level of understanding of these words they are pushing a barrow uphill before they even start.
Next time you read a newspaper or hear a discussion and these words pop up (unless the words themselves are the point of discussion) it's a sign that you are either being led by the nose (we all hate terrorists, right?) or there is a character or other smear intended. Either way you are misled.
Watch out too for even more innocuous words such as "settlements" when talking about Israel theft of Palestinian land, instead of "occupied territories" which has now been erased from newspaper vocabularies in place of the more politically correct term.
This must be getting boring so won't prolong it, except to mention the hundreds of "stick thin" corpses on display at the "death camps" (another emotional jolt there). Post-war forensics found these people died of typhus and starvation, not torture and maltreatment as heard at Nuremberg.
My Gawd, isn't that bad enough? It is, possibly even worse than death by gassing (another myth). The reality is that all Europe starved in the last three months of the war, and Germany most of all.
Her harbours, railroads and road bridges has been destroyed, and all incoming food supplies blockaded. From December onwards people started dying, first by the scores, then by the hundreds and even thousands. The prisoners in question had all incoming food supplies cut off, in addition to overcrowding from incoming inmates from other camps fleeing the advancing Russians. The result was typhus (from the lice which flourished in overcrowded conditions and poor hygiene) and starvation.
Eventually the corpse load rose so high that all attempt to bury or cremate them ceased. That was the situation when the Allies arrived.
There's plenty of soundly based evidence from reliable historians on these points if anyone is interested.
Regards,
Bob.
The Lockerbie bombing is more and more looking like a false flag operation. This is the latest from a well-respected London journalist.
Nor will this the be last we hear of this. If we're lucky, some very dumb journo (he would have to be dumb - his life would be forfeit) might just finger the real culprits who I bet don't live more than a border or two from Libya.
Lockerbie 'bomber' release was a face-saver
4:00AM Tuesday Aug 25, 2009
By Gwynne Dyer
Abdel Baset Ali al-Megrahi was an intelligence agent. Since he worked for the Libyan Government, he probably did some bad things.
But he probably did not do the specific bad thing for which he was sentenced to 27 years in prison in Scotland.
He served only eight years. He was released on compassionate grounds last Thursday by the Scottish Justice Secretary, Kenny MacAskill, and flew home to Libya.
He is dying of cancer, but his release outraged the Americans whose relatives died aboard Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988. They believe that al-Megrahi is a mass murderer who should die in jail - but that is not necessarily so.
There were also British victims of the attack, and almost none of their relatives think that al-Megrahi should have been in jail at all. As their spokesman, Jim Swire, put it: "I don't believe for a moment that this man was involved [in the bombing]."
Back in 1988-89, Western intelligence services saw the bombing of Pan Am 103 as an act of revenge. The US warship Vincennes had shot down an Iranian Airbus five months before, killing all 290 passengers, and the Iranians were getting even.
(The US was then secretly backing Saddam Hussein's war against Iran, and the Vincennes, operating illegally in Iranian territorial waters, shot down the airliner thinking that it was an Iranian fighter.)
There was some evidence for this "Iranian revenge" theory. In 1989 German police found the same kind of bomb that brought down Pan Am 103 in a house in Frankfurt that were used by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command. This organisation was based in Syria, and Syria and Iran were allies, so maybe ...
But then, in 1990, Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. Washington needed Arab countries like Syria to join the war against Saddam to make the liberation of Kuwait looked like a truly international effort. Syria's price for sending troops was removal from America's most-wanted list. Suddenly Syria was no longer the prime suspect in the Pan Am case - and if Syria was out, so was Iran.
But more Americans died on Pan Am 103 than in any other terrorist attack before 9/11. Somebody had to take the fall. Libya was the obvious candidate, because it had supported various terrorist attacks in the past.
Soon new evidence began to appear. It pointed to al-Megrahi, who had been working as a security officer for Libyan Arab Airlines in Malta in 1988. A Maltese shopkeeper identified him as the man who bought children's clothing like that found in the suitcase that contained the bomb that brought down Pan Am 103.
It was pretty flimsy evidence, but Colonel Gaddafi, Libya's ruler, was desperate to end the Western trade embargo against his country. He never admitted blame in the Pan Am affair, but he handed al-Megrahi and a colleague over for trial in a Western court.
Al-Megrahi's trial took place in 2001. His colleague was freed, but he was jailed for 27 years (in Scotland, because Pan Am 103 came down in Lockerbie). As time passed, however, the case began to unravel.
The Maltese shopkeeper who had identified al-Megrahi, Tony Gauci, turned out to be living in Australia, supported by several million dollars the Americans had paid him for his evidence.
The allegation the timer for the bomb had been supplied to Libya by the Swiss manufacturer Mebo turned out to be false. The owner of Mebo, Edwin Bollier, revealed that he had turned down an offer of $4 million from the FBI in 1991 to testify that he had sold his MST-13 timers to Libya.
One of Bollier's former employees, Ulrich Lumpert, did testify at al-Megrahi's trial that MST-13 timers had been supplied to Libya - but in 2007 he admitted he had lied at the trial.
And this year it was revealed Pan Am's baggage area at London's Heathrow airport was broken into 17 hours before Pan Am 103 took off. (Scotland Yard knew that 12 years ago, but kept it secret at al-Megrahi's trial.) The theory the fatal bag was put on a feeder flight from Malta became even less likely.
All of which explains why the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission announced in 2007 that it would refer al-Megrahi's case to the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh because he "may have suffered a miscarriage of justice".
The review commission's decision caused a crisis, because a new court hearing would reveal how shoddy the evidence was. Happily for London and Washington, al-Megrahi was now dying of cancer, so a deal was possible.
He would give up his plea for a retrial, no dirty linen about the original trial would be aired in public, and he would be set free.
A miserable story, but hardly a unique one. A man who was probably innocent of the charges against him, a loyal servant of the Libyan state who was framed by the West and hung out to dry by his own Government, has been sent home to die.
*
Quote from: SandyB on August 15, 2009, 03:25:18 PM
Fact is the holocaust did happen , an atrocity of that scale could not be made up and if this is true then the authorities in the UK are doing their folk a huge dis -service
Actually, it IS in fact quite easy to make up.
Firstly, I don't want to be seen as an anti-semite, a hater or racist here. I have Jewish friends.
Have you ever seen the names of six million Jews? Wikipedia only lists around a few, who likely died of Typhus or starvation nearer to the end of the war.
If you have a good internet connection, go to http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com and download some of the videos there for a good insight on some suspicious aspects of this over-used idea.
Another good place to check out would be http://www.vho.org. There they have some pretty good reading material available for free download on this subject.
See also:
http://www.codoh.com
http://www.ihr.org
http://www.zundelsite.com
http://www.nazigassings.com/
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/
Please keep your mind open and actually look into this before judging anything.
Thanks!
HEY FOLKS WE HAVE REALLY LOST THE THREAD ... THE ORIGINAL QUESTION IS .. COULD THIS REALLY BE ?? AN ANSWER WAS ASKED BY PUTTING IT TO THE FORUM HOPING OUR MEMBERS IN THE UK COULD CLARIFY .. WHAT WE HAVE IS A LOT OF DIFFERING THOUGHTS , ANGLES OF APPROACH AND
CONSPIRACY THEORIES OR TRUTHS WHO REALLY KNOWS ??
ME JEWISH FRIENDS AND A " DENIALIST " FRIEND TRY TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND .. NEVER MIND THE " 6 MILLION " JEWS THAT PART OF THE THEORY BANDIED AROUND HERE IS THAT THAT NUMBER IS USED FOR ULTERIOR MOTIVE , OK SO THEN , WHAT ABOUT THE POLES , THE GYPSIES , ETC ETC ?? I REPEAT THE ONE THREAD OF MY WORDS FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS TOPIC ..
I have colleaugue at work who denies it happened .. he even has books that try to disprove it ...I have told him that its irrelevant if one life or 6 million lives were lost to a twisted ideology ,, either way its sick ..
AND YES FOLKS THE COMMENT ITS IRRELEVANT IF ONE LIFE OR 6 MILLION WERE LOST -- ITS NOT ABOUT THE NUMBERS ITS ABOUT THE IDEOLOGY -- WE AS HUMAN RACE ARE INCLINED TO NUMB OUT AND FORGET , AND THATS WHAT I SEE HERE ... I RECALL A GOOD ONE ON THE GENOCIDE IN RWANDA .. IT LOOKED LIKE THE WHOLE WORLD WAS IGNORING IT -- AND THE POINTED QUESTION WAS WHEN IT REALLY EXPLODED WAS THAT THE " WATCHERS " DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DEFINE GENOCIDE ,, THEY WERE LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS AND DEBATING WHEN IT BECAME GENOCIDE -- AGAIN FACT IS IF ITS ONE OR ONE HUNDRED OR THOUSANDS ITS IRRELEVANT ... WHAT HAPPENED IS WHAT WE DEFINE TODAY AS A HATE CRIME .. TAKE THE RECENT ONE POSTED HERE ABOUT THE " CURRY JUMPER GANG " WHO BEAT UP AND STOMPED AN ELDERLY INDIAN MAN TO DEATH PLENTY OF OUTRAGE ABOUT THAT ,, THATS ONE LIFE ,, ITS WRONG ...
WHAT ABOUT THE XENOPHOBIA HERE IN SA AGAINST THE SOMALIANS ,, THE GOVT SAT BACK AND WATCHED MOST PROBABLY ALSO COUNTING TO TRY DECIDE WHEN IT BECAME XENOPHOBIA AND ULTIMATELY GENOCIDE ...
AGAIN I REPEAT FORGET THE NUMBERS >> FORGET THE "THEORIES " ..... REMEMBER THE HATE AND ITS ORIGINS .. THE IDEOLOGY AND HOW PEOPLE CAN GET SWEPT UP IN IT ... COMPARE THE SCENARIOS THEY ALL HAVE A COMMON THREAD -- A WARNING DONT NUMB OUT .... DONT FORGET ...
THATS MY REALLY HEARTFELT COMMENT ..
Sandy this is false information you have been given ............Check this site this rumor has been circulating since 2007 ..............................Frank
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp
Hi Haiko. Are you a real OMer??
Thanks Frank .. I did not even bother to look at the links .... as said again the internet is rife with disinformation espousing various beliefs and persuasions each one seeking to sway thought ...
Again without emotion .. the orginal thread and intention is lets not forget ... what I see happening in this day and age and that despite further atrocities being performed worldwide is the forgetting ... the origins of hate crime in all its forms . .. hell man as a human being I at times in these tricky times we live in battle with my feelings and can feel the lines being blurred at times .. I constantly remind myself of the mistakes of the past .. and then resolve to try never go there and yes warn others to do the same ..
Was it not the MOTHS, that say "Lest we forget"....
or to that affect....
In essence, what happens, is that the great wars are always remembered...... the waste of life, with nothing being achieved in the long run...... as those old timers fade away, as all old timers must, the younger forget, they heed not the warnings.... and are doomed to repeat past mistakes.....
On the nail Mike " lest we not forget " my Mom and Dad drummed this into our mindset .. the messengers fade away and yes the mistakes are repeated .. mind you I have many good years ahead .. so will continue to be a messenger ,,,
'Sandy' in Australia at the Returned Services League clubs or RSL as they are commonly known every night at Nine o'clock everything stops.
Every one turns to a central point, and there is an Ode read out
At the going down of the sun...
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
There is a response from the members.
'LEST WE FORGET'
Australian Remembrance Poems
Everyone present stands in silence and the Ode from For the Fallen is recited. Note: RSL Clubs (Returned & Services League of Australia) are social clubs ...
alldownunder.com/oz-v/writers/remembrance.htm - Cached - Similar -
This is another quote that you will see on the war cenotaphs.
'THE PRICE OF FREEDOM IS ETERNAL VIGILANCE'
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. by Thomas Jefferson
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. by Thomas Jefferson. ... "Freedom is the recognition that no single person, no single authority or government has ...
www.quotedb.com/quotes/2283 - Cached - Similar -
On the Internet Sandy there are sites that try to give the truth, sometimes they do not get it right but all in all the do try............Frank
Quote from: SandyB on September 04, 2009, 05:02:28 PM
Thanks Frank .. I did not even bother to look at the links ....
Right, so you didn't even bother to look at the links, after I specifically asked you to please see the links before actually spouting any nonsense about misinformation.
The major question posed by holocaust deniers isn't whether the death toll is accurate (even though it is one of the subjects brought to question), it's more in the lines of "Was there an official order or plan to wipe out all 'onerwunschte'?" (excuse spelling if wrong).
If you can provide me with an answer and evidence to back up your statement, then I will ignore the attempt at a red herring. So far, I have found NO plan or order given by Hitler.
The mere fact that I don't find any plan or order, does, I admit, not prove the non-existence thereof, so any help in finding this would be appreciated. It also doesn't prove Hitler innocent - it was Hitler's militarism which caused several wartime deaths.
So what it all boils down to is that the gas chambers were NOT used for homocidal purposes, as people like Fred Leuchter and Germar Rudolf have been put in jail for scientifically proving.
The Germans used Zyklon B gas in delousing chambers during the war. That is why you find the tell-tale blue-green residue of Cyanide inside such chambers. Why, then, does one not find said residue inside the alleged gas chambers?
If you would like to know more and don't just want to spout nonsense about conspiracy theories without knowing the true definition of "conspiracy theories", then contact me and I'll tell you more. Please don't sink to using ad hominem attacks, as this won't get anyone anywhere.
Lets just put this topic to rest ... better so for all ..
Despite my response this morning to Haiko's reply ... me saying lets put this topic to rest , and yes for me initially making a decision on a personal basis to just walk away from it and move on , not enter into further debate etc ,, something deep inside of me said no , it will be an injustice to just walk away , it deserves fair response ..
Back to the original thread with the question asked ... Is this indeed true ?? are we forgetting that a war/wars happened , that atrocities were committed , and even in this day and age hate crimes and atrocities are still being commited ..and yes are we as mankind numbing and dumbing out ..? ? For me to say "without emotion" is easy .. to separate emotion and common sense is not always so easy .. to write objectively what is coming out of ones heart is also not always easy as lines can become blurred or easily be misunderstood .. I see that outcome in the last reply .. and yes find it easy in my heart to forgive any misunderstanding ..
I feel selected passages of my writing have been taken and understood out of context .. and I go to the "ad hominem" attacks comment .. I have in my days when fighting for folk done injustice , stood up to lawyers using big words to try beat me a total layman down , seeing this now reminded me that they never intimidated me and I remained resolute and always got a good and fair outcome , anyhow I did a search on this latin expression .. so many definitions and angles to the expression ,the one that stood out most sensibly was as below ..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Definition:
An argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case; a logical fallacy that involves a personal attack. See also: tu quoque.
Etymology:
From the Latin, "against the man"
For instance, ad hominem is one of the most frequently misidentified fallacies, probably because it is one of the best known ones. Many people seem to think that any personal criticism, attack, or insult counts as an ad hominem fallacy. Moreover, in some contexts the phrase "ad hominem" may refer to an ethical lapse, rather than a logical mistake, as it may be a violation of debate etiquette to engage in personalities. So, in addition to ignorance, there is also the possibility of equivocation on the meaning of "ad hominem".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now in all honesty I have read back on my postings and cannot unless I am really so dumb see me arguing on the failings of an adversary rather than the merits of the case , or did any personal attack on an adversary ,
Ie : " against the man " absolutely not ... instead I see my trying to prod conscience, that we as fellow beings have to always have an active conscience .. to the point of me admitting my failure in that many times frustration at events at times makes me want to cross lines . But always remembering to never forget past mistakes as a basis for a better future ..
To reference of not understanding conspiracy theory , I have read and enough and heard enough to have a reasonable understanding of the concept . I did not attempt to say that the " holocaust " or the "non holocaust " was a conspiracy theory , merely drawing attention to the fact that the internet is rife with conspiracy theories sites and sites espousing the for and against so many interests , in each case for gain or to sway opinion , and yes a good amount of untruth floating around as well ..
Strangely enough I took the time to do a search on conspiracy theory just to make sure I was not being really dumb and yes the first one I opened referred to the expression " red herring " as well , I also do not see myself trying to throw the red herring to distract ...
That I did not bother to look at the links ,, well I did not need to , the person I know personally apart from showing me the " denialist " books also gave me lots of links to look at on the internet , none could sway me from my original stance of where there is smoke there is a fire , that something happened , and that one life is too many ..
To other comments ... to say that there is no evidence of a master plan is actually irrelevant , fact is that initially a religious / ethnic grouping , citizens of a country who had not declared war on the country were slowly denied the right to conduct life and business as normal , then moved to ghettos , and finally moved to camps .. The same was applied to every country occupied , ordinary citizens excluded unless they decided to help those in need of help ,, also in the net were any another " undesirables" .. final result people displaced and moved to camps .. the results of this a disaster in the context of overcrowding and disease spread resulting in unnecessary loss too many of lives .
I do not have to produce evidence of a master plan .. there were actions that point to a misguided hate crime that say it all ..
In all writings I made no reference to the gas chambers .. so see no relevant reason for the focus there ..
The reference to the man's militarism leading to the loss of several lives , well it was not several it was millions of soldiers and innocent citizens of many countries including his own .. we will leave that folly there and hope mankind learns ...
And now in closing ,, Haiko .. this is genuinely not an ad hominem attack , but yes its disturbing that unlike myself who is an open book , follies , foibles etc known to so many in this site , with an identity and a picture and who speaks from his heart , you choose to remain under an unidentified name with no picture . This site would benefit from everybody who wants to express opinion especially controversial showing who they really are .. it would be greatly appreciated ..
@ Sandy - I think 99% of the members understand and appreciate your input, and value it dearly.
We have come to know you very well through your postings and meeting you in person, and there is no doubt about your character - it's been proven over and over again that you're special to many (friends, colleagues and even "Jan Alleman").
allgood
I absolutely agree with Bertie. Sandy I am also sure that 99% of us are not offended by your statements and postings. I fore one enjoy reading them and appreciate them even though I may not always reply.
allgood
3d smiles(281)
"Back to the original thread with the question asked ... Is this indeed true ?? are we forgetting that a war/wars happened , that atrocities were committed , and even in this day and age hate crimes and atrocities are still being commited ..and yes are we as mankind numbing and dumbing out ..? ?"
Well, I agree that wars and atrocities should not be forgotten in the present, but what I think the Muslims of Britain are trying to tell people is that such atrocities weren't committed by the Germans against the Jews, for one.
One of the things which proved to me there is something fishy going on around the entire holocaust story is the fact that there are so many so-called "eye-witness" accounts which have been scientifically proven wrong and others which either didn't need to be proven wrong on a basis of outright hilarity or were admitted to be false.
For example, one Jewish man 'recalls' that he could tell what nationality of Jew was being burned in the crematoria by the colour of the smoke exiting the chimney.
1. Crematoria aren't supposed to smoke. That is what the technology is made for. The only smoke which is possibly emitted is from engines.
2. The colour of the smoke? That's ridiculous.
Another man claims to have seen geysers of blood spurting out of the ground for months during the Jew's time in the concentration camps.
"...and I go to the "ad hominem" attacks comment"
Yes, the definition is right. I apologize if my comment has come forth as an allegation. I didn't intend to make it sound like you'd already comitted the ad hominem. I only stated this request as a preliminary precaution.
I've debated and discussed this subject so many times when people start comitting all sorts of fallacies, so I only wanted to prevent such things taking place here.
Again, I apologize if it sounded like a harsh accusation.
"To reference of not understanding conspiracy theory , I have read and enough and heard enough to have a reasonable understanding of the concept . "
Perhaps, then, you could have the wrong defintion? I myself don't believe in the 9/11 conpiracy theories, even after watching documentaries like 'Zeitgeist', because there are too many inconsistencies in such theories most of the time.
When looking at the true definition of 'conspiracy theories', though, one notices that the idea that the Al-Qaeda attacked the WTC is in itself a conspiracy theory.
Any theories of conspiracies fit the bill. Not just the ones which appear to be understood by 'minorities' alone.
"I did not attempt to say that the " holocaust " or the "non holocaust " was a conspiracy theory , merely drawing attention to the fact that the internet is rife with conspiracy theories sites and sites espousing the for and against so many interests , in each case for gain or to sway opinion , and yes a good amount of untruth floating around as well .."
Accepted... and I must say I agree.
"and yes the first one I opened referred to the expression " red herring " as well , I also do not see myself trying to throw the red herring to distract ...
That I did not bother to look at the links ,, well I did not need to , the person I know personally apart from showing me the " denialist " books also gave me lots of links to look at on the internet , none could sway me from my original stance of where there is smoke there is a fire , that something happened , and that one life is too many .. "
I see a paradox here. You say you didn't commit a red herring, but then mention yourself not looking at the links. Where after, earlier, you started talking about how the internet is rife with conspiracy theories and untruths. That is a red herring; you strayed from the subject. But it's all good.
I agree, one life would be too many.
But when looked at from a historical point of view, what does this mean?
Would it be worse if there was an entire army who killed one man or if one man killed another?
I agree, it's near impossible to tell for sure whether any one Nazi was a murderer. The possibility that at least one German had something against Jews is always there.
Would you change your stance if you found out that no Nazi murdered a Jew (or a gypsy, etc)?
The reason I brought up the "master plan" is because one cannot accuse an entire army, almost an entire country, of having murderous intentions against an entire human race without EVIDENCE. So we don't have any evidence (except "eye-witness" and fraudulent accounts extracted via torture from Nazi officers) that even ONE Jewish person was MURDERED.
"To other comments ... to say that there is no evidence of a master plan is actually irrelevant , fact is that initially a religious / ethnic grouping , citizens of a country who had not declared war on the country were slowly denied the right to conduct life and business as normal , then moved to ghettos , and finally moved to camps .. The same was applied to every country occupied , ordinary citizens excluded unless they decided to help those in need of help ,, also in the net were any another " undesirables" .. final result people displaced and moved to camps .. the results of this a disaster in the context of overcrowding and disease spread resulting in unnecessary loss too many of lives . "
No, they did declare war on the German state. Have you heard of the newspaper title "Judea Declares War on Germany"?
Wikipedia tries to debunk the title, but fails to do so on grounds of poor logic. I can discuss it in detail if needed.
Did you know that the concentration camps got more food near the end of the war than German citizens themselves were getting?
Did you know that the Russians also had Jews in concentration camps known as Gulags?
Did you know that Americans had Americans of Japanese descent in concentration camps?
Did you know that the Polish had Germans in concentration camps before the war and beat them to death? Wouldn't this be reason enough to invade the country?
"I do not have to produce evidence of a master plan .. there were actions that point to a misguided hate crime that say it all ..
In all writings I made no reference to the gas chambers .. so see no relevant reason for the focus there .. "
Name one such action?
Well, the 'gas chambers' are allegedly the main means of extermination used by the Germans. What else should I focus on?
"The reference to the man's militarism leading to the loss of several lives , well it was not several it was millions of soldiers and innocent citizens of many countries including his own .. we will leave that folly there and hope mankind learns ... "
Now wait. Hitler didn't start the war.
Hitler didn't cause the death of German civilians. That was courtesy of Allied bombing raids on German towns and cities, even those with absolutely NO military presence in them.
Remember, the Allies are notorious for using such extremely weak and inhumane tactics as to bomb civilian towns. Remember Hiroshima?
Maybe the real murderers are the British, just like back in the Boere-Oorlog...?
Hi there Haiko .. ok firstly thanks for being so big as to apologise ... it takes heart to do that ... lets all do ourselves a favour and let this one fade into obscurity , we have each had our say ,, .. agree that there is always disagreement in this world , acknolwledgement thereof very healthy , and yes if one wants it to be so a situation of agreeing to disagree , pretty much the situation i have with the colleague and friend I mentioned , the difference in opinion has not marred our mutual respect for each others opinion and we keep it out of our daily conversation ... he may discuss it with likeminded and me the same with my like minded ... to actually continue with this is I feel a dark cul de sac down which if we go , we will all lose perspective and use bad words and create bad blood .. each to their own .. there is no olive branch on the smileys .. but if I could I would say yes heres an olive branch . and yes in words of the old wisdom .. " you welcome to sit at my table " you are despite differences a thinker ...
Regards ,, Sandy
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080106230912AAixS4y