Oranjemund Online

Excellent story and a very brave woman that has compassion for others. She will find her Glory in Heaven not on earth. This world has become sick and getting sicker by the day.

There was probably a very good reason why Sendler didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize. Her story is suspect. Even on the basis of just a few facts it is possible to find glaring holes in the narrative.
For example the Warsaw Ghetto was first sealed off by the Nazis on November 16, 1940 and finally destroyed on May 16, 1943 - giving it a life of about two and a half years or a total of 800 days.
To remove 2,500 children in that time Irena Sendler would have had to work every day for 365 days a year during that time without a break for illness or any other reason, taking children out at the rate of 3.125 children a day.  As you can't take out one-eighth of a child there would have been some days when she took out four children to reach that total of 2,500 before the ghetto was totally destroyed.
One child a day is an unlikely scenario, smuggling out four is in the realm of fantasy. But let's accept that at face value and go to her other claims. She was a "plumber/sewer specialist". Really? In the 1940s when women stayed at home and certainly never learned a trade?
All right, let's wear that one and go on to look at more reality. It was wartime. Worse, it was wartime in an occupied country. Petrol was not only scarce, it was for military use only, certainly not for Poles. In fact all vehicles had been confiscated. If you couldn't move something in a hand cart pulled by your own muscle power (all horses had long been eaten) you didn't move it at all.
Then there is the question of why the Nazis would give a damn about sewer and plumbing repairs for a bunch of people in a jail (that's what the ghetto really was) who they were intending to liquidate anyway. And a dog, in a city where dogs had disappeared? Indeed if it hadn't been eaten it would have starved to death as there certainly wasn't enough food for people let alone pet animals.
And against that background, a starving city, occupied by a hostile army, this good lady found homes for 2,500 children. And not just any children, these were Jewish children whose very presence in your house meant not only an extra mouth to feed when your own kids were starving but also death for the adults or removal to a concentration camp if the child was discovered. The Nazis offered rewards of food to people who dobbed in their neighbours. How would you explain an extra child in your house to the people next door? How would you stop the neighbourhood kids from talking?
Curiouser and curiouser or, to misquote Alice, perhaps difficulter and difficultur.
But hey, it's a good story, so let's not get too picky. Let's accept that Irena out of all the women in Catholic Poland was a qualified plumber/sewer repair specialist who worked 365 days a year, ran a illegal truck during a fuel shortage with a barking dog that frightened Nazi soldiers carrying loaded guns, talked herself, her truck and her dog in and out of a high security jail and smuggled out up to four children a day. Then she spent (how many hours a day - where did she find all this time?) finding homes for Jewish children with Catholic families who took them in at risk of their lives.
After that she recorded the names of all the children, placed her notes in a glass jar, buried it under a tree in her garden just before she was caught and tortured by the Gestapo and then, out of all the other hundreds of thousands of victims of the Gestapo, released to live to the righteous old age of 98.
I suspect if there was a Nobel Prize for fiction she would certainly have been awarded it. Oh, wait, there is a Nobel for fiction so she has been doubly denied her just rights. It's that bloody (no pun intended) Al Gore again.
But why can't I get all weepy about this story and just take it on it merits? Perhaps it has something do with the Hasbara, the propaganda campaign launched by Israel to cover up its dirty tricks in Palestine. Send out enough WW2 atrocity stories about the poor Jews and hope the smokescreen will take the attention off the current crop of obscenities in the Holy Land. 
Next time you see one of these awful, awful WW2 tales floating around the internet, just ask yourself two questions: why now, so many years later, and what's happening right now in Palestine that needs our real attention?

@ Bob ... seen this one before ,  when I saw it first  had the nagging doubt . and seeing  it again waited to see.. your comment  ever  so valid  and a reminder to be careful of  whats  put on internet ,,, something we  all learn all the time .
But then  lets not forget  that the  war existed and  awful things happened , and  yes propoganda  from all sides ,,  apart from the propoganda  there were heroes ,,,   ordinary civilians that put their lives at risk , the  resistance groups  , ordinary caring folk  etc
From  the times before  the internet I  have firm memory of the book   I read  of of Corrie ten Boom ,, the hiding place ,,,
I remember  feeling pain  stings as i read the book ,, could not imagine the  inhumanity that occured .
The ongoing back and forth  propoganda  and human rights issues  now  in the israeli palestinian saga have  similar  pain stings for me , 
again  ther is too much of the  eye  for an eye  going on ,,
as a good muslim friend of mine said ,, we  are  all cousins ....
why cant we use  the universal greeting of shalom  toward each other ,,, ???
awfully  so its the powermongers  that are using ordinary folk for their  own needs ..
not  good  not nice ... 

I have read with interest the story and comment on the Irena story.Alot of so called factual drivel being spouted about. She was actually a social worker and did alot of good for many many children. Not all the kids were put in Catholic homes and after all the Catholic church namely the Vatican took untold jews in, collected their gold and treasures and then turned them over to the Natzi's. The Vatican has the largest collection of Judaica out side of Isreal, but very little information as to who they saved, in fact on a visit to the vatican I asked the question and was told allot of the records ere destroyed. I mean how conveniant is that, they keep priceless books,treasures etc but no records of the Jews they saved. Make your own mind up as to why. I am a proud Jew, I was not born Jewish but converted as I wanted my children to be bought up with an Identity as the religion comes from the mother not the father. So in keeping with an open mind and respectfull of other religions, after all My belief is that we all have one head office (G_D) or what ever you call yours, and we are just different branches of the same office. But that is maybe a very simplified way of looking at it. Right or wrong it is only one persons view.

However on MNET currently there is a movie about Irena and what she did and how she did it. Makes for very interesting, sad viewing. There are also other Jewish heros that did similar things, Schindler, the family that protected Anne Frank and in my own family a father in law that managed to escape from Germany, arrived in SA, first non SA citizen to sign up to fight against the Germans. Was sent to Tourbruk, captured, sent to Italy, boat torpedoed, eventually land up in a POW camp and as he was studying to be a doctor, was the medic for the POWS. He and a few others managed to get over 1000, yes 1000 British, amercian and other countries soldiers smuggled and escape out of the camps, due to some soldiers having typhoid, they would "rotate" the ill prisinors into the bunk houses, so the germans would not come in and then the allied soldiers could escape, whether through tunnels and other means. He never told us whilst he was alive about this, but when he passed away we found letters, comendations and other literature about this episode in his life. So here is just three things that I know of and maybe allot more, if you visit any of the holocaust museums.  So in one aspect she didnt get the nobel prize but her life and her deeds are worth more than any nobel prize in the world.  G_D Bless you Irena in fact G_D bless them all whether they saved one or one thousand. With out those unselfish acts the world would be a terrible place. Now the question to ask is how many people have you saved today? How many will you save tomorrow? You know I am going to try and save one, she is two yeards old, is dying from severe liver failure, but Jenna, my darling GK is going to give it her best shot and raise the money so that you and Mommy can go to England if we cant get you a liver here.  My journey for Jenna starts next year, watch this space. And do it for all the other people who need organ donars.

Thanks Bob.
As some of you may know, I'm no racist, nazi or any other kind. I've had several discusion on this board on european liberalism ect. Several of you would find me to be to liberal.
I'm trying to find my way into the topic.
There's no way I'll ever apoligize anything Nazi-Germany did from 33 till 45. neither would I apologize the way Nazis tricked their way ínto german or any sociaty (including SA).
But there is no way we should stand with gaping eyes and mouths when stories of this kind are told. THere's oftemn a psychological trick behind this. Every-one of us has been an "opressor" or hurt somebody. Or at least sympathised with people that do wrong. When we read stories like this we feel safe/free of guilt. It's the others who do wrong. And no matter how "fantastic" a story is, we'll believe...
Hope my english was good enough to put out my point.

Reading   the comments put here , did a bit of conscience  search ,break  away  from a neutral stance  ..  also took the time  to do a bit of  internet research  on Irena Sendler ,  so may different stories  including  the  hoax  aspect  .. so now  who is  right ?? who is correct ??  who  is the ultimate judge of it all ?? ,,, all who have  put comment including  the posting of the original story  whether it  may  be able to punched full of holes by statistics  and a  story line that does not exactly tie up with other  artciles about her work ... fact is  if  she is mentioned .. fact is  if  she saved  one life  or  100 lives  or 2500 lives  ...  the good work of   the heroes and heroines of that time  do not deserve  to be diminished by  badly put together  over the top  stories ...  so now  I state it ... Irena Sendler .. one  life ,  100 lives .. 2500 lives .. who cares  ..  every effort  small or big  made  and  makes the difference ..  if its all so then Irena  gets my vote ...
again I state   always  remember history and the past mistakes  and vow not that they be repeated ...
@ Georg  .. one should never feel obliged to apologise for mistakes of  the past generations .. hell man   if that was so  we would be forever apologetic  instead of moving on  ..  the difference  is cultivating good conscience so as to ensure  past mistakes are not repeated

Yes, Georg, you've nailed it in one line: "There's always a psychological trick to it."
The trick is that the story is used to take our attention away from some current atrocity that is taking place right under our noses. I can illustrate this with a few questions.
Why don't we ever hear of the atrocities in the Boer War in which 17,000 Boer women and children died in British concentration camps?
Why do we never hear about Churchill's decision back in the 1920s to use poison gas on Iraqi civilians?
Why do we never hear about Russian atrocities before, during and after WW2 in which millions were put to death?
Why do we never hear about the Morgenthau Plan proposed by the Americans after WW2 to starve the German people down to a fraction of the population and reduce the country to an agrarian (i.e. non-industrial) State?
Why do we never hear of the many millions of German civilians and the 1.5 million German prisoners of war still in Allied hands who died of starvation and abuse after the war, and why do we hear nothing about the other thousands of German prisoners of war who, in breach of the Geneva Convention were kept as slave labourers by the Allies for years after the war?
I have a list of questions a yard long like that but those few make the point. And that is that publication of those historical facts serve no current purpose whereas Holocaust type stories do.
Note that every time there is an atrocity in Gaza or the West Bank or currently in Jerusalem where Israelis are destroying Palestinian homes and building houses for Jewish settlers in their place there a sudden flurry of Hasbara activity, the Iraeli propaganda campaign, which either rushes out a new Holocaust story, another tale of anti-Semitism somewhere in the world or – flavour of the month – another terrorist attack or bomb in the mail story. And while we are all tut-tutting about these awful things the real atrocities go in their shadow
Get real guys. Your daily press feeds you what the Hasbara dictates and that's the long, tall and short of it. I'm happy to open up a correspondence with anyone on this but I doubt that Mike would welcome such contentious debate on this website which is really dedicated to a town and a group of people who lived and loved in a better time and a better place.
Regards,
Bob.

Hi Bob.
We've been discusing issues like capital punishment, racism ect. in the past. So why not talk about the "psychological tricks.
It's great exchange old stories of our Oranjemund history. But the shows who we realy are...

By the way. Who realy remembers, that it was the Brits to build the first concentration camps?

To quote..... people, glass houses, stones throw........ We cannot wrong all the ills in the world. Some people are complacent to sit, judge,write,opinionate and bless one and all for their opinions, and actions what ever they may be, but my point was that I am going to try and save just one and pay it forward, not for any religious, money making or self inrichment, but because I can try and I can give back to a little girl that has bought unconditional love,joy and made a huge difference in my little life. I oppose any attrocity bought into this world by any one, but do not have the power to change history or even the future, but I can read, look at a big picture and say that maybe Jenna when she is all grown up could change a small part of these horrible things and be part of a legacy that does want to change and not put up with any of the atrocities. From small acorns oak trees grow. And you know what I will do it. image24

Mmm  me coming  in here  .. suggest this  topic be left as it is ...   we all have our differing opinion ..  leave it so ,, from our different corners of theworld we have opinion shaped by past  and present experience ..  16_1_231   put this to rest ...

Hi Skinny,
              I appreciate your concern for a sick child and respect your choice of religion. However, neither of those issues logically contributes to this discussion which in case we have forgotten started with a post on the legendary Irena Sendler. I say legendary because her story is the stuff of legend, there are certainly no solid facts anywhere to support a single iota of the story.
I challenged the story on that basis and showed that it would have been logistically impossible for any person to do what she is claimed to have done. I also pointed out that the story was planted on the internet for a purpose and gave reasons for making that statement. The same purpose was behind the MNET production.
For anyone else who feels like commenting, please go back and read the points made in my piece again. If any one of them sticks in your craw, come back and say so, but give a reason why. In that way we can progress the discussion on that single issue alone without dragging in emotional non-sequiturs. It is impossible to come to any conclusion if we keep moving the goal posts.   
I agree with Sandy's point: ""Always remember history and past mistakes, and vow that they not be repeated." However, the issue I brought up was that in these days of dark things being done to innocents in the Middle East we are being asked to selectively remember history. The internet is filled with either anti-German hate memories of WW2 or Islamophobic stories of terrorism, all aimed at either taking our attention off what is happening right now or else making us feel guilty at even thinking about being critical.
And it works. We have all been sold the Israeli pup and feel upset or even outraged that anyone could possibly think of being unkind to it in any way. Memorise the word "Hasbara". Look it up. Read the background. Be informed. Arm yourself with information. In that way we can protect ourselves against propaganda. And also, to repeat Sandy's point, speak out when we see the old mistakes being repeated.

This is going to get me into trouble....
What I'm trying to point Germany is still a target when it comes to the issue on human rights. That's okay to me, at least when it's about the past. Why dont we talk about the the children shot dead in hometowns in the 60s and 70s because they wanted equality.
It's about feeling responcible of what is happening within our midths.

What about all the people getting murdered and robbed in South Africa today ?
Think we should rather talk about them..

Mmm a nice diversion ,, Mike  those are  real home issues , and deserve attention ,,  equally so  do all  forms of injustice occuring  in the day and age ,,,  there is a lot of selective consience around  and we  all  are  prey to falling  into that trap ,, so nobody or their opinion is perfect ..  again  lets   agree  to differ  without  emotion  coming into the equation  ,,  Bob has valid point  in  saying arm oneself with  as much information  ,, prob is to sift  ,,, and  yes  do as I do  whenever seeing  old mistakes repeating , injustice   or  plain old social issues take the stand ,,  let your voice be heard ,,  many    individual voices make a powerful   big  voice ...  the power of many ...  I  been doing  it for years ... with interesting results ..

To add  to  Georg's last comment , no what you say will not get you into  trouble ,, valid comment  about  the  people shot  in the townships , it was part of  a troubled past ( not that we  in SA not  in a troubled present ,,  a reality we have to  face )  those happenings in the troubled past  do not  cause me guilt feelings cos  a lot of  it happened  during  formative years ,  sheltered by a  hobbled  media .. still  growing   learning to form opinion  breaking away from peer pressure  and then  slowly  growing the opinion  and  taking  it  into actions ,, while still trying to  keep a pragmatic view of all that was  transpiring ..   so  I repeat  unless one  was  active in   perpetrating or  promoting injustice  then feel no guilt .. I recall   in the 80's  ( still the dark times in our history ) travelling  in Europe and on many occasions  being verbally attacked  when  people discovered i was from SA ,,  called a racist  etc ,, i  quietly  told the attackers  that  they did not know me  or my viewpoints  so why judge or attack  me  by where i come from , ??  quietly explained that  as an ordinary citizen all I could  do  was  to try make the difference  in areas that were under my direct  control  , breaking  old molds , giving support  against injustice  wherever  I could .. No guilt ...

Thanks Mike. That's what I'm talking about. And It's excactly what we have to in our country. In fact, everyone must ook and see what his responcability in these issues is. It's politics, every day socialising, neibourhood, religion, philosophy... You name it. It's what our life is about.
And there's no sence in pointing at anybody...

Mmm  Georg  has had a long  day ,,  Mistaking me for Mike ...    cat3

Damn! Thought I had lost weight there for a minute.....   image201

I was refering to Stennies comment...  ha ha

We  know ..we know  ..  we just  ..  shaking your tail ...   cat3  how  you doing Georg ??

I'm fine, and as it seems you tou. Nice to see you guys are being a bit more active on the board now. To many are spending their time on facebook.

Good  to hear   Georg ,, hope you have taken note of my comments  ....  its as i see  it ...

Quote from: SandyB on November 12, 2010, 07:43:09 PM
To add  to  Georg's last comment , no what you say will not get you into  trouble ,, valid comment  about  the  people shot  in the townships , it was part of  a troubled past ( not that we  in SA not  in a troubled present ,,  a reality we have to  face )  those happenings in the troubled past  do not  cause me guilt feelings cos  a lot of  it happened  during  formative years ,  sheltered by a  hobbled  media .. still  growing   learning to form opinion  breaking away from peer pressure  and then  slowly  growing the opinion  and  taking  it  into actions ,, while still trying to  keep a pragmatic view of all that was  transpiring ..   so  I repeat  unless one  was  active in   perpetrating or  promoting injustice  then feel no guilt .. I recall   in the 80's  ( still the dark times in our history ) travelling  in Europe and on many occasions  being verbally attacked  when  people discovered i was from SA ,,  called a racist  etc ,, i  quietly  told the attackers  that  they did not know me  or my viewpoints  so why judge or attack  me  by where i come from , ??  quietly explained that  as an ordinary citizen all I could  do  was  to try make the difference  in areas that were under my direct  control  , breaking  old molds , giving support  against injustice  wherever  I could .. No guilt ...

Important to point this out. Of course it's not a matter of feeling guilty. Especially when things occured the way you mention Sandy.
Again. It's a matter of feeling responcable. Knowing means to make sure you're on the "right side".

PS  Georg ,, read  into my writing ,,, my conscience  made me try to be  as best as possible on the right  side ..

Georg,
          If you would like to pursue your interest in German history, you may find this link helpful. It carries material by a highly regarded German historian who is beginning to make waves on the academic scene.
Cut and paste the link into the Google search box and click. That should take you straight to the article in the archives of the Institute for Historical Research.
Regards,
Bob.

Prof. Nolte Tackles Taboos of Third Reich History - IHR

Thanks Bob. I'm checking...
This issue has been hard to tacle for Germans especialy in the years after the war. There was so much guilt.
Many Nazi landed up in South America, USA, South Africa and even in east and west Germany making an easy living. Some of them making their way to the top of society.
The youth movement in the 60s tried to uprise against anything that reminded of the nazis.
Today, when Germans dare to critisize jews or Isreal, they are acused of being nazis. How stupid. We're probably the europian country with the least right activaty.

Georg,
         No German need feel guilt about WW2. If there was a queue for the guilty then Germany would be at the very end of the queue and there would be a long line of allied forces standing at the front. It was a war foisted on her as was WW1.
Incidentally, this piece of news will interest you. It shows that Germany finally paid off its reparations for WW1, honouring its commitments right to the end unlike any of the other countries involved.
As before, just cut and paste the following line into Google.

Germany ends World War One reparations after 92 years with £59m final payment

Just like every else in this world the loser pays.
The history books say the Allied Forces won the last time I read one.

How do you win a war Mike?

Georg ,  you are in  psycological practice  you  should  know  better ,,   there are  no winners  in any war .. The ordinary folk  who lose loved ones are those left with loss ..   as to the  who is right  or wrong  or  who is guilty  or not guilty .. there is a mass of information on the net  supporting and refuting  all the  stories  ...   
I state for now it depends upon what one wants to believe ,,

I have  had a  couple of wines too many so will not elaborate .. short to say .. its sad that someone took the story of the  Irena  Sendler and created a  posted over the internet  tale that  could be punched full of holes  as  I agree its not possible  as it was written down ..
So for now  lets do conscience search ... and think  I will put  my response later  in the week ..  busy with other exiting stuff ...

That's why I asked Mike. There are never winners in a war!!!!!!!!

Georg  totally agreed ..    await my response .. like said busy with  other exciting stuff  soon to be posted ..  ...  gnight  and sleep tight .. the sleep of innocent babes ..

Quote from: SandyB on November 12, 2010, 07:43:09 PM
To add  to  Georg's last comment , no what you say will not get you into  trouble ,, valid comment  about  the  people shot  in the townships , it was part of  a troubled past ( not that we  in SA not  in a troubled present ,,  a reality we have to  face )  those happenings in the troubled past  do not  cause me guilt feelings cos  a lot of  it happened  during  formative years ,  sheltered by a  hobbled  media .. still  growing   learning to form opinion  breaking away from peer pressure  and then  slowly  growing the opinion  and  taking  it  into actions ,, while still trying to  keep a pragmatic view of all that was  transpiring ..   so  I repeat  unless one  was  active in   perpetrating or  promoting injustice  then feel no guilt .. I recall   in the 80's  ( still the dark times in our history ) travelling  in Europe and on many occasions  being verbally attacked  when  people discovered i was from SA ,,  called a racist  etc ,, i  quietly  told the attackers  that  they did not know me  or my viewpoints  so why judge or attack  me  by where i come from , ??  quietly explained that  as an ordinary citizen all I could  do  was  to try make the difference  in areas that were under my direct  control  , breaking  old molds , giving support  against injustice  wherever  I could .. No guilt ...

Sandy, the same happened to me in June 1976 when I was in Wales. I was also called a racist and you name it. What I told my attackers was I put my money where my mouth is as heard a lot of stories of the UK and came to see for myself. Put your money where your mouth is and come to SA and see for yourself instead of pissing it up against the wall.