NORMAL PEACE LOVING CITIZENS ,, PASSIVITY .. HOW RELEVANT ..??

[SandyB]

Mmm .. oh Dear ...  getting the feeling someone watching me  from my PC screen ....

[Bob Molloy]

@Sandy, Frank, Mike et al,
                                          The price of liberty is indeed eternal vigilance. That means being fully informed before you go to war.
                                 There is a "so-what" feel about statements posted on this topic i.e. it's boring, it's been going on forever, we can't change it etc etc. The reality is that it affects you and yours vitally. If you are a parent you have already given hostages to fortune in the form of your children. It isn't the power elite who are coming home in body bags, it is our own sons and daughters we offer up for cannon fodder, whether this be to so-called 'terrorist" action or actual military service, not to mention the waste of treasure that goes with the spilling of blood. In short, it impoverishes all of us and it behoves us to do something.
And we can. We can start by informing ourselves of the real issues. Begin by Googling the BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares", either to download or watch online. Brace yourself for some eye-opening truths about our media and our politicians; more importantly, how they manipulate you
We, the West, have been rampaging around the Middle East since Britain destroyed the Turkish empire in 1917. First it was driven by the British oil companies, then the American oil companies and now it is powered by an agenda aimed at smashing all Arab resistance to western hegemony.
For that reason we were softened up by our own media to accept a destruction of first Afghanistan and then Iraq. Now it is Iran with an alleged nuclear power capability and next in the firing line is Yemen.
As for why "they hate us", the answer is that is simple: there hasn't been an Arab army occupying a western country for more than 400 years yet it is we who are destroying their land, wrecking their cultures and killing their children. Why wouldn't they hate us? Wouldn't you in their shoes? Why don't we just stay at home and look after our own homeless and hungry people instead of creating legions of them in other people's countries?

Take a look at this link:
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/30/why_they_hate_us_ii_how_many_muslims_has_the_us_killed_in_the_past_30_years


Regards,
Bob.

[toonfandangl]

Bob had a look at your link!!   and as I thought it was an 'EXPERT'  (Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University) who reflected these figures, err are these not the EXPERTS that get us into these situations. We were at one time considered cannon fodder, but in today's light of enlightenment and technology we can discuss issue's on forums just like this, and the many thousands around on the Internet, the powers that are there will take note.

Remember the Vietnam war stopped because people power overrode the EXPERTS and they did not have anything like the tools (Internet) we have today, plenty of body bags. Some of these countries that are talked about are the richest countries in the world they have amassed their wealth from Oil have they opened up their coffers and invested in their countries infrastructure schools, hospitals, law and order, social security............no I think why they hate the West is they see the life that we are privileged to have.

We are made out to be decadent and evil, because some religious fanatics has the power to brain wash a hand full, there is no way in the ******* world would I blow myself up......... for how many virgins. I know a few Muslims as well as Jewish, Hindu, Buddhists, 'etc' oh and Christians and they are not about to cut my head off or (well not until I pend this) blow the S*** out of me.

When disasters hit who are the first in to give aid, shelter, food, and support, or is this another way of passive invasion and the West can pat itself on the back and say its has another foot hold in a country that dose not want us there. I think the Americans are waking up to the fact that they are not the most popular nation and they have been bombastic and high handed in their dealings with the east.


Australians killed in quake crash
Ethnic Chinese mourners in Gunung Sitoli
Nias bore the brunt of Monday night's earthquake
Nine Australian military personnel were killed when their helicopter crashed during relief operations on the quake-hit Indonesian island of Nias.


Bob hope we can discus this further my opinion differs slightly from yours!! and I know am going off like a pork chop (sorry no offence to anyone religious or otherwise) we seem to be in the same age group and years seem to mellow oneself. I have sons whom I do not wish  to see them have to go off and fight for some buracrated Expert.....Regards ...Frank

[SandyB]

As noticed I have ducked  out of this one ...   one can pull  up so many differing opinions from the internet ,  however will   add  final comment ...  from the original  article , may have been a  badly constructed snow  job  but yes did a bit search ,,,  Russia ,, Communist  China   the Japanese ,  Rwanda  etc  the  peaceful folk  sat back and allowed  a  crazy minority  to take over  .. Thats proven history  ,,, thats  fact  so  despite  the  articles   faults  it carries a message that  I'm sure none of  us can deny .. and leave it there ... I dont  need the  back and forth cut and thrust of  expert atricles    drawn from internet  ...   be vigilant   thats all ...

[Bob Molloy]

Hi Frank,
              Your point about "experts". Sorry to disagree, it was the experts who kept advising us against such ventures as the Afghanistan and Iraq war (note the Iraq inquiry currently ongoing in the UK where the odious Blair has just squirmed his way out of a jail sentence despite his former Attorney General testifying that he had STRONGLY advised him against it).

The IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) is filled with experts. They have repeatedly told us that Iran has no nuclear weapons and no programme to make them, yet our press keeps beating the war drums. That's where the body bags and the suicide bombers will come from next.

The latest is Yemen where, guess what, the "intelligence" agencies have found a terrorist plot. So they sent in drone missiles to assassinate some target or other, killing several dozen civilians including children in the process.

And we object to a few Muslims marching in Bretton Wootton or wherever, protesting against this obscenity? What's wrong with our heads?

Can't say this often enough: the reality is that we have military forces over there creating terror day and daily. There are no Muslim armies over here - and never have been for over 400 years. What we are suffering is asymmetric warfare, the warfare of the poor who only have their frail bodies to offer in their country's eternal fight to throw off the yoke.

Security checks at airports and other travel points, no matter how sophisticated - and bloody irksome and expensive too - are just the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. What we need is a fence at the top of the cliff to stop the accident happening.

That fence is called peace. You can't make peace with war nor can you fight for it. Fighting for peace is like f-king for virginity. It sounds good, it possibly even feels good, but by definition it cannot achieve the aim.

In short, let's get the hell out of other people's countries and let them rule themselves. There are other and more effective means of enforcing international law. 

@Sandy,
             "Crazy minorities" beat the crap out of all opposition e.g. the Russian Revolution (at one time half Europe had troops in there), the Spanish Civil War, the Chinese revolution which threw out the appallingly corrupt Chang Kai Shek and finally gave each Chinese child at least a bow of rice a day. 

As for refusing to read "expert articles", would that include eminent historians? If so, where do we find "proven history".

We need constant input, day and daily, to keep ourselves informed. The Internet is a cornucopia, a veritable treasure house, of information both true and false. A news source that can't be censored. Such a situation has never existed before in history. We are the first generation to benefit.

Mankind has been cursed with ignorance since our first ancestor stood on his hind legs. Now, in this modern age, we have the tools to set ourselves free.

The problem is that it's easier to keep our heads in the sand, which is one way to remain a slave to our own prejudices. That's why the demagogues rule us. That's why our children die in useless wars. That's why so many of us are poor, not just in means but also in spirit, in aspiration, in loss of vision.

We can opt out of that. It take a bit of time away from the goggle box. It means opening our minds to new and sometimes scary ideas, but if we really want to improve things for the next generation instead of just passing on our own prejudices it's the only way.

Regards,
Bob.

[SandyB]

@  Bob ,    its  not  about  keeping ones head in the sand ..  you  are still  missing the point   ,  its  about vigilance ...
Question , is a bowl of rice a day  worth  having ones freedom taken away under  communist rule ??

In  fact  so many  questions ..  and  yes  scary  new ideas  ..   and  agreed    the internet  a  valuable source ...    experts ,, ??   history  ... history can  eaily be  re written   ,, look  here in SA   compared to  20  odd years ago the school history  books  have  a   toally different  slant ,,   the  media  can  make  history ,, just  plug it  enough .... the media  can make  one the most  popular  person on the planet ,, just  promote the  person enough  to get a  wave  rolling ..  the corect opnion  is  sometimes the  one  that makes the most  noise or  gets  the most  exposure  or  marketing  call it  what you may ...   mmm enough here .. me  also getting a sore  head ,,,,

[Michael Alexander]

What about those millions of Chinese that actually starved after the revolution as the big Socialist farms came crashing down due to the lack of farmers(who had all been drafted into the factories, and the farming equipment that got melted down)........

[toonfandangl]

Hello to you Bob Sandy!!



QUOTE !!

        Your point about "experts". Sorry to disagree, it was the experts who kept advising us against such ventures as the Afghanistan and Iraq war (note the Iraq inquiry currently ongoing in the UK where the odious Blair has just squirmed his way out of a jail sentence despite his former Attorney General testifying that he had STRONGLY advised him against it).


It seems that they are all experts Bob I remember seeing a film in O/M it was called 'Oh! What a Lovely' War 1969 Directed by Richard Attenborough and I think at the time everyone thought it was a war film. There were still a lot of them going around, but this turned out to be a satirical musical about the first world war, and I think every one that saw it thought it was crap. It did win awards but the point I remember was that no one took the blame for the mess these people made and the million that died, and that I think was the point!! Experts in warfare.

I am using your quotes Bob........In short, let's get the hell out of other people's countries and let them rule themselves. There are other and more effective means of enforcing international law. Which country's are we talking about, Australia was taken about 200 years ago and I know the aboriginal people would dearly like to kick us all out, and what about New Zealand the Maori people would like to see the back end of colonist, the Indians in the US tried that Cyprus and Turkey the Greek's even South Africa.

You made the point Bob about........ Can't say this often enough: the reality is that we have military forces over there creating terror day and daily. There are no Muslim armies over here - and never have been for over 400 years. What we are suffering is asymmetric warfare, the warfare of the poor who only have their frail bodies to offer in their country's eternal fight to throw off the yoke.

As I said in my post these countries that we are talking about are some of the richest countries in the world, why is it that the elite pander to the few influential, and their own people are treated like s***

Saudi Arabia is the world's leading petroleum exporter. Petroleum exports fuel the Saudi economy.Oil accounts for more than 90 percent of exports and nearly 75 percent of government revenues, facilitating the creation of a welfare state, which the government has found difficult to fund during periods of low oil prices. Human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have repeatedly expressed concern about the state of human rights in Saudi Arabia.


Regards........................ Frank

[Bob Molloy]

Good stuff, guys. This is the real stuff of debate, of discussion. Keep it coming. I like to hear different ideas. And yes to "eternal vigilance", which really means keeping ourselves informed, including revisionist history.

Re post-colonial states and who is occupying whose country: after WW2 the newly formed UN by common agreement drew a line under previous history and all member states accepted the status quo. From that time on all national borders and their governments howsoever composed had legal status, i.e. recognized by international law. Since then of course we've had endless quarrelling within those borders largely because previous colonial powers had divided tribes and races, and worse still cobbled together the most unlikely combinations of each, yet by and large the status quo has held.

Re New Zealand: Maori and Pakeha (white colonists) signed a treaty in 1840 which gave each mutual sovereignty and forms the basis of the present state, a situation accepted by all. It is celebrated annually on Waitangi Day (today, February 6) which is the signal for a delightful day-long debate on, and celebration of, the treaty.

We live within a few kilometres of the original treaty signing place at Waitangi in the stunningly scenic Bay of Islands on the east coast of the North Island. The site is now a national monument. The day is celebrated nationally at designated centres around the country but the main focus is at Waitangi attended by politicians of all races from the Prime Minister down and various Maori chiefs and tribal groupings. There were just over 50,000 people there today. We were there almost at dawn and stayed 'til late enjoying the day-long argy bargy, music, song, dance, war canoes in full array and thunderous haka challenges. Again, as in previous years, it filled me with renewed faith in my fellow man and his (and for his read her) ability to reason a way past tribal and national disputes to better outcomes for all.

We hosted a couple of Namibian friends (who run conservation programmes in conjunction with the Damara) to a Waitangi Day celebration two years ago. They told me that for them it was an eye-opener in terms of peaceful acceptance of often widely disparate viewpoints.   

So where am I on the political spectrum? I've moved back and forth across it several times in my life and am again on the move. To my chagrin I must admit I was once a convinced Friedmanite, a one-worlder, a free marketer, unashamed capitalist and believer in corporate globalism. Today such concepts make me want to throw up. The problem is that I can't conceive of practical alternatives that would keep us all adequately fed, housed and secure.

Communism is unworkable (Christ was the first communist and none of us are saintly enough to measure up to that standard), Bolshevism faked it for 70 years but fell apart in the end, Socialism smells of dreary similarity, Fascism ran its course in the 30s and early 40s, Capitalism causes boom and bust disasters, not to mention wars, and Democracy is the worst possible form of government but for all the others.

That leaves....oops, I'm hogging this thread. Must stop. Back to the drawing board - any suggestions?

Regards,
Bob.

[SandyB]

My head  stopped hurting ..   debate does that ....   Ok  all  ..  keep  emotions under control  ...  good things .. Bob  admitting to human  frailty ...  frailty of systems ...  me  never been a comitted anything  ,,, just someone  who  deep in soul   dislikes injustice  and prejudice , so  can flick flack  a bit ...  sad fact is we are  surrounded by prejudice   and   even unbeknown to us  at times  participate in   it  in some or other form , so  none  of us can take higher  ground ...   as for  systems ,,   Capitalism  and  democracy   are still  the only  albeit still imperfect systems ...   thats  if  voters are  intelligent , put their emotions  aside and evaluate  and make  those they voted into power accountable  and  ahve the right to remove them   if they fail , the impossible being that those  elected have enough integrity to step down if  they f... up .... ,, Capitalism  ie :  work ,,  earn ,, work  hard  succeed  ,,  always remember that   there is always  strata in society ...  poor  ,   middle  class  ,   rich ,  and  of  course  by  some  curveball  the  obscenely wealthy ...   just wherever you find  yourself  ,   always  just  try to be  the best   human being that  you can be in that scenario  and never  succumb to greed , ego , look down on others ,  or become power hungry ... thats the killer of    capitalism  , democracy  and human decency  ...  thats  my  very simplistc  take on all

[toonfandangl]

Hello Bob Sandy and anyone who is interested!! I do like a debate!  and it can take you into all sorts of subjects and topics, this one started by Sandy can get a bit hair raising when we are talking about people and their land. What is forgotten !! this is one world! its only the seas that separate us we are all connected!......... and by talking and discussing these subjects, the world will become a better place.The Internet is the most powerful instrument we have, its not always right......... but you can sort the seed from the chaff.

As you say Bob.... Re New Zealand: Maori and Pakeha (white colonists) signed a treaty in 1840 which gave each mutual sovereignty and forms the basis of the present state, a situation accepted by all. It is celebrated annually on Waitangi Day (today, February 6) which is the signal for a delightful day-long debate on, and celebration of, the treaty.

It took a little longer for Australians to recognise these treaty's but again with debating and peaceful demonstrations they achieved their goal

In Australian history, the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act established the basis upon which Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory could claim rights to land based on traditional occupation. The act, the first of the Aboriginal Land Rights Acts, was signed by the Governor-General of Australia 16 December 1976. It was the first Australian law which allowed a claim of title if claimants could provide evidence of their traditional association with land.


Suicide Bombings...................... This is a quote from the link below

The unpublished data show that since 1983, bombers in more than 50 groups from Argentina to Algeria, Croatia to China, and India to Indonesia have adapted car bombs to make explosive belts, vests, toys, motorcycles, bikes, boats, backpacks and false-pregnancy stomachs.

Of 1,840 incidents in the past 25 years, more than 86 percent have occurred since 2001, and the highest annual numbers have occurred in the past four years. The sources who provided the data to The Washington Post asked that they not be identified because of the sensitivity of the tallies.

From 1988 to 2008 I am not sure of the data here the Washington Post say 22.000 killed due to terrorism there is the link below.
http://au.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0KjqmhrV25L2OQATAs36At.;_ylu=X3oDMTExN2szY25nBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NwMQR2dGlkAwRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=1386mltga/EXP=1265608939/**http%3A//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/17/AR2008041703595.html


Then when you lookat this data.


1.2 Million people killed each year on the roads........  that's 2.5 percents of deaths in the world!! and that's not counting the injured if this was a war..........1.2 million accidents............at what cost.


These below are the 5 Top causes of Death world wide

1.Heart Disease . In 2008, heart disease accounted for 30% of deaths worldwide, according to the World Health Organization (WHO)

2. Stroke According to data released in 2006 by TheHeart.org, there is reason to believe that stroke (a manifestation of vascular disease in the brain) might become the leading cause of death by the year 2030, and possibly the second leading cause in just a few years (after heart disease).

3. Cancer  Whether you're looking at breast cancer, lung cancer or cervical cancer, most variations of this condition are among the leading causes of death worldwide. In a 2003 report, WHO noted that yearly global cancer rates could increase to 15 million by the year 2020.

4. HIV/AIDS According to the UNAIDS 2009 AIDS Epidemic Update, there were 31.3 million adults and 2.1 million children living with HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) at the end of 2008.

5. Instances of Infant Mortality  two million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide.

Its a bit long winded but the comparison of deaths due to terrorism and that of the data above......... well will give it a rest I am still amazed at the road fatality's.............preventable deaths..........today is the anniversary of Australia's worst bush fires 173 people died in Victoria......... peace be with you all..............over to you Bob.