Where is that Topic gone too, locked and why so, is that now a secret so the papers can not steal info ?????
Would like to know, Mike please help us we are interested in the story
Georg
Yep! Has it been sensored by somebody?
Did the men in the black car with black suits visit ??
is it realy gout you've got to-day?
did the men in black suits and black car have dark glasses and ear pieces ?
Koos - bring back our ship wreck story.......... pls
Maybe " they" have kidnapped Mike and are currently performing a lobotomy in an attempt to turn him into a " good little citizen " the follow on to the stepford wives movie is coming soon its called " the stepford husbands "
At this moment in time, Mike is not at Liberty to discuss this topic in Particular..... men in Black Suits and All...
shooter
meanpuff you need to come to mine for a bit?
Not yet, but lets see how things progress...... thnx
Mike .. what have they done to you ? did it hurt ??
It put a confused smile on my face, how the mine hierarchy were more concerned to spend the afternoon lurking on this site, worrying about photographs of an alleged wreck, when they should have more important things to worry about, like producing diamonds and achieving targets in order to prevent the current workforce from being downsized.
It's not my fault a journalist also happens to visit the site and use some of the material on here.I repeat, I NEVER HAD AN INTERVIEW WITH THE NEWSPAPERS, I REPEAT I NEVER SENT ANY PHOTOGRAPHS TO THE NEWSPAPERS, I REPEAT, I RECIEVE AT LEAST 150 EMAILS A DAY FOR THIS SITE, I DO NOT KEEP TRACK OF WHO SENDS ME WHAT, AND I DID NOT SEE ANY COPYRIGHTS STAMPED ON THE PHOTO"S....,
I wonder when I googleEarth, in on the site and post those images here, if I first have to ask NASA. Ask yourself carefully, what harm, what benefit was being caused......
It's a good thing I'm sober......
I can't see or understand why we are not at liberty to discuss the topic, as it is part of history. Maybe the black suits are scared that treasure hunters from all over the world will swarm the place.
Who is gonna inform Clive Cussler about this - good topic for his next bestseller.
(Now I will get a knock on the door from these guys.)
@ MikeEasy tiger - it will all blow over in the end..........as with everything, it is easier to point a finger and blame some-one. Maybe the powers that be just didn't expect this site to hold so many peoples attention... numberone
Thought as much .. they cant see the wood for the trees .. such a find is of great historical importance and could form part of the tourist potential .. and worse so .. you namdeb lurkers out there ,, do you realise that the rest of the outside world also reads this site as guests so your stupid actions will not go unnoticed ?? gotcha !!
Mike. old habits die hard
one day the company tells you things must change or we doomed.( become a normal town)
the next day they still want control of everything.
meanpuff
James Bond is on his way to clear things up soon.
That ship is top secret from foreign powers that wanted to steal some of the desert sand.........
They must have overloaded the ship and it sank, the waves brought it back, last time i was there i could not see it, or was i blinded from the sun ????
Sherbit, now no more story, muffled some of you, but not me !!!!!
I wait what the AZ will bring, should i contact them ???? reveal such big sectrets....send an Agent ???
Let us have our share of info and i always thought the company briefs the people.....????? madashell
Big Brother is watching us yesno They dont scare me no more
@ Georg Snr bravo ... a humerous look at paranioa ..
Sorry, It must be noted , before I get a few more phonecalls, That the Mine did not ask me to remove the topic, a few other individuals advised me that it would be the appropriate thing to do until a few more facts can be confirmed.....
:nono1:
But why? we are all inteligent people and we know that things have to be investigated and sussed out - we are only drawing our own conclusions and making up things as we go along - BUT we also know we have to wait for the facts.......now we are wondering what is really happening and if the ship is actually a space ship!!!
Ssssssh! , they might hear you..... :wow1:
Understood .. we lie low for now ... who remembers ' area 52 ' maybe it was indeed a spaceship from the 1500's
Just waiting for a friend of mine to return from Windhoek on Wednesday....... barb1
:36_2_24: notfair
Does anyone fancy a beer while we wait???
Nope, not tonight, I'm gonna ply meself full of drugs and hit the sack...... dream of a few movies maybe, something like Pirates of the Carribbean or Mutiny on the bounty or Amistadt or .............. ?
Ply yourself with drugs - is your gout giving jip?
Talking about drugs .. I was hit with an abcess under a recent very expensive capped molar .. I had to pay an emergency dentist on suday morning R 600 for 10 minutes work involving tapping the tooth (i could ahve old him it hurt) and two X rays . to get a script .. but I was so desperate that I wanted to rip my head off and feed it to the dog to get rid of the pressure pain .. in the meanwhile I had consumed 8 maybe 10 Myprodols in the space of sat night .. felt very strange the next day .. now on antibiotics , Myprodol and a bit of booze ( i believe in the Liz Taylor diet of booze and painkillers ) everything kicking in nicely now so its almost bedtime .. just hope the "gentlemen' in the black suits dont kidnap me in my vulnerable knocked out sleep state ...
Yep! Yep!
Nice feeling! Hey Sandy!.... iknow
Hey Sandy - I just love the way you express yourself.......I laughed so hard when I read about you wanting to rip your own head off.......
Have no fear of been taken in the night - the Bot Squad will keep watch...... shooter
Ta .. good to know the botsquad keeping watch over me .. having last drop of vino .. cheers !
And I was beginning to believe Koos...
believe Koos ??
This topic is desturbing by sleeping patterns (the few that I have). Dreamt that this thing has something to do with the ancient Egyptians, some sort of artsi stuff like (ag damn, what do you call those coffins the pharo's were put in?) - and huge skeletons, giantlike if you wish also dug up near the wreck.
notfair
idontknow - will have to wait and see what comes from it. Just wish the black jacket squad would leave their ties and polished shoes at home and start digging with the other boys. Hurry up you lotta snobs - this is also part of our history and country - we want to know what the facts are about this wreck. We don't wanna steal anything - we are not like you lot - the only thing we want to achieve here is to gain knowledge!
Over night wonder
The ship was dug out, cleaned and renovated
Now in new splendor
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/schiff.jpg)
Hey Georg, are you sure you have the right permission to post that photo in here..... :emot19:
Am I allowed to :emot19:
Now George has gone and put my dream into the mixer - that's a vessel from the Da Gama era or Marco Polo - not the Egyptian era.
George and I are shivvering in our shoes - oh so scared of the koekeloerders!
Still waiting for someone to name the coffins of the pharo's - tickle me pink, cannot come up with it - and I know that I know the word, but I don't know it now.
sarcophagus
Quote from: Michael Alexander on April 08, 2008, 07:08:01 AM
Hey Georg, are you sure you have the right permission to post that photo in here..... :emot19:
Yes Mike, its my Pic. I have a large archive. I built that Ship while living in Oranjemund.
Seems like some Joker burried it at U50 G
Its a replica of the Royal Sovereign 1657
I will post some others that lay also in the area around E-Bay and Bogenfels, they must still be found.....
The first artifacts from the wreck
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/IMGP2191red.jpg)
Some detail of the found ship
See the Life Saving Boat, still intact and unused.
The Ship was cought by a monster wave, no chance for the poor sailors
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/RoyalSouvereign22-1.jpg)
:emot19:
On holiday in Nam. oldman?
Thanks Patricia. I knew it was something with '...ophagus', but the word osophagus kept popping up in my mind, and that is a body part! cl1
Quote from: georg ruf jr. on April 08, 2008, 09:55:34 AM
On holiday in Nam. oldman?
No, hard working undercover on the ship wrecks, hope nobody sees that here....Top Secret !!!!!!!
Some more deatils of another wreck in the desert.
That has not been found yet, i am not prepared to reveal the location.
I will search the ship for treasures first and salvage them........first come first serve
Tip: Its further away from the other wreck
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/HMSVictoryb5.jpg)
Am I lucky to inherate this all one day...
:emot19:
I had a fax from Berlin, Kaiser Wilhelm Archives of Lüderitz
An expedidition in 1912 took already a Photo of the after section, the ornaments are pure gold......
I will now return to the desert and see how far the restoring has gone so far. Note : we work at high speed there
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/RoyalSouvereign8-1.jpg)
:nono1: Sorry George jnr - this belongs to the nation - you not going to inherit one gold coin - not even an old piece of cloth from the sails. So says the OIA (Oranjemunder Intelegency Agency)
No chance. the loot is already abroad...
Received mails, people claim i am not on the ship
Here the proove
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/cuttysark10combi-2.jpg)
I believ you Georg ... you clearly are on the ship ... you look like you're about to get sea sick ... :emot19:
Quote from: Patricia Lotte on April 08, 2008, 11:28:47 AM
I believ you Georg ... you clearly are on the ship ... you look like you're about to get sea sick ... :emot19:
Well observed, help me please they are after me, the men in black suits oh sherbit .......
Georg watch out behind you .. oh dear too late ...
After the clean up...........wow , look at he gold
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/RoyalSouvereign8.jpg)
You see Dalene. I told you... :emot172:
:emot19:
You lay a hand on the bounty of the loot, you's gonna be :emot172: the iron bars down in the dungeons for a few years to come..... iknow
:emot19: e154
No news ?????????
callme
The first Pics of the treasures found in the captains cabin..........
We search for more
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/turm_oval1.jpg)
Geez oldman! You shouldn't be showing it all around. I heard there are pirates coming your way. Make sure you get all men to the cannons. shooter yesno
Dont worry son, we have the man in black under control and dodged them......tonight the actions will continue, still more to be found. Thats why they dont release any info....
I wonder what the AZ in Whk would say if is send them the link of that topic LOL
There is still nothing mentioned there, all voices have been shut by you know who
No more info from O-mund or else i guess
Greetings from the desert
The idea with the link is good. I'd give it a try. lol
Some more
I left it in full size
Found them in abox with a letter of the captain to his wife. That was for a bracelet.......shame she never got it.....its to late to search for her or i would hand it over
Dig your profile pic oldman. It's not very alike of you taking pics like these...
:sorriso2:
Quote from: georg ruf jr. on April 10, 2008, 11:16:59 AM
Dig your profile pic oldman. It's not very alike of you taking pics like these...
:sorriso2:
Webcam Shot in skype
Thought so...
I find webcam gives a distorted goldfishbowl type of effect at times .... me and a few friends have ahd fun with the built in one on my PC .. go close up and change angle take pic .. ha ha we look kind of funny ...........
Ok... I'm not using the mines Photographs and I heard that a lot more tusks have been recovered, the Archaeologist is on site... and what I heard on the shop floor, the ship might be a Spanish Galleon dating back 400 years plus... I believe that the mine will be making an official statement in a few weeks.... still riveting stuff without the pics....
Two different types of cannon on board, and a name has been lifted.......as I said before, I cannot claim this to be fact, just the chatter on the shop floor......
Please keep us informed as well as you can.
Ja, At tonights meeting, the man in black was sitting about 8 seats away from me, surrounded by the rest of the MEN in BLack......., I still shake my head in utter disbelief at the way they went about this little episode.... :nono1:
Did they find any skeletons?
Good thing you mentioned that.... once again, I cannot say this is fact, coz the men in black are gonna read this 2moorw and send the man in black to phone me again.... but a bird came into the store and had coffee with us today,,,, anyhow this said bird heard that the wreck has levels.... and the story went about, that what if they had slaves on the wreck.... they would have been kept on the bottom level... and the good DR, must still dig that part out......
Okay - I was interested in the story from the beginning - but now at the thought of bodies, I am sitting up and taking notice.............as soon as there are FACTS - pls pls pls keep us informed.........
I will have to leave the facts to NAMDEB, it's on their mine, all I can post Is gossip, not what I say, but what the people say... but when I hear what they are saying... I'll post.....
And when NAMDEB give the official facts - maybe one of them big boys can post it - Amistad springs to mind, but I'll be good and wait for the official details
The men in black... Are you refering to their skin or their clothing?
bling1
Jnr, just think striped suits my friend... just think striped suits...
Okay. Black skin and striped suites. Better this way than the other way round...
laughpoint arse
I never said that... SSssshhhhhh!
:emot19:
Play nice Jnr...
I'm only trying to understand.
Remember? Ich bin Deutscher. Good excuse, isinit?
Do you want MIchael shot at dawn? shooter
The powers might ban you from the site Jnr - behave yourself
Now how many Michael's are in here?
giverose
MIchael Smith, Michael Green, Michael Brown and Michael Black.
Methinks thou dost poketh funeth at me again.... begone wensch.....! laughpoint
Not often a shipwreck is found buried inland .. riveting stuff.. one would think its a point of great interest and that all should be kept informed .. as I said " area 52" anyhow we wait wait with bated breath for the powers that be to stop protecting the info as vigorously as the Zim voting outcome ...
Sandy from what I'm hearing, is that the wreck is actually beneath Sea level and would not have been found if it had not been for the mine pushing the sea back.... now it seems like the wreck is lying in a coffer dam type effort. maybe the men in black could just put us all outta our misery......
MIB must be steaming under their tight collars the way we poking fun at them .. wonder if we will be allowed in in November .. persona non grata ...
Well according to the mayor, discretion is no longer up to the mine, it's up the Government, Mines and Energy..... and as long as you ain't a hardened criminal ... you're gonna get in..... just not into their mining area.....
eat cherries mike,ps does that thing lay at the bottom of the sea bed shaking, if so me thinks it is a nervouse wreck
:emot19:
Hey Mike,the klipkapper guys were are still busy on site,which was also declared out of bounds,they have been quite busy today and removed quite a lot of smaller items,and i think they will be busy for quite a while. bling1 gnite
Tell me Adriaan. Are they the men in black that scared the sh** out of Michael last week?
A well placed source has just emailed me to inform me that the good Dr.Nolie who is in charge of the dig site, has this websites address and will be informing us what is going on in about two or three weeks. time... let's hope it happens...
Er,ja i thought i saw some men in black,but they were all wearing overalls,and our good Dr Nolie was trying to show them,on how to remove the soil with a teeny weeny triangular troffeltjie,and they had a very baffled look on their faces,because afterall they were used to removing tons of soil. bling1 ,Now this madman ah they got it at last..... eurika. he is trying to prolong the life of the mine.So they happily carried out their task.
Tell they they got to troffel a little faster - we wanna know what's hidden under the sand!
Quote from: Adriaan Van Rooyen on April 15, 2008, 06:03:49 PM
Er,ja i thought i saw some men in black,but they were all wearing overalls,and our good Dr Nolie was trying to show them,on how to remove the soil with a teeny weeny triangular troffeltjie,and they had a very baffled look on their faces,because afterall they were used to removing tons of soil. bling1 ,Now this madman ah they got it at last..... eurika. he is trying to prolong the life of the mine.So they happily carried out their task.
How about burrying some more wrecks. Or is this what Michael did and that's the reason why his not talking on the site? It'll keep the compony going even longer. bling1
Sssshh! Jnr.... you know to much...careful the men in white might hear you! :emot19:
Ok... here's what I got so far... the source is from a a chap who was in the bar with the good doctor excavating the site.... the following was stated...
1) Portuguese Ship...
2) Circa 1500's
3) Trading ship...
4) 7m below sea level
5) 8 bronze cannons
6) 4 smaller types
7) 300 copper balls weighing 5 kg each...
8) total weight of 1500 kg
9) Elephant tusks now number 58.....
Now, I am not saying this is all fact.... this is what I am hearing... and there is no copyright on people discussing this........
Digging for tusks
Cant reveal the source, the men in black will get me.......
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/ElliTusk-2.jpg)
Hahahaha... you must be really bored.....
Do tusks grow in the desert? Looks that way...
Quote from: Michael Alexander on April 17, 2008, 10:34:31 AM
Hahahaha... you must be really bored.....
If information is withheld notfair
i jump in and supply the story, hope the Papers will print that soon meanpuff
Talking about the MIB .. our new phenomena in SA is the "escorting " of the " entitled but not necessary deserving " by 3-5 or maybe more Black X5's with blue flashinhg lights .. they are mean and they just push people out of the way on the road .. I say its an abuse of power and appatrnetly they are untouchable as they are from VIP ( very important pig ? ) protection unit .. I know I am taking a risk but its like a red rag to a bul,l when i see them so at every opportunity I play dumb and do not get oput of their way .. or overtake them and give them the two finger sign just to let them know how I feel . once again last night on de waal drive .. the same .. I felt hackles rise ... got level and did the two finger salute again . More people must do that let them know what you think of them very important pigs ....
We've been living with that scenario in Namibia for the last 18 years..... e180
Funny i never saw it with the bad " old regime " Or did I not notice it .. or wre they not as aggressive ?? Whats wrong with these people ?? are they paranoid ?? I thought the old lot were ??
An intersting email from an expert, Dr Paul Brandt.... website at www.maritimeafrica.org
"Hi Mike, Thanks!
It looks like broken stone cannon balls for larger cannon - earlier bronze cannon used stone shot - the cannon are badly eroded due to earlier sea action - These are deck mounted Swivel guns which were used on Portuguese (and spanish) ships. Bronze cannon started disapperaing in the early 16oo's - from these few photographs alone - seeing tusks, bronze cannon and stone cannon balls - agree that it must be Portuguese mid 15oo's - probably a ship returning from India due to the tusks being on board. But then, it could be a west coast Portuguese slaver who picked up the tusks in Luanda and got a bit lost. To id the ship as coming from India we need to see the tell-tale money cowries, carnelian beads and Chinese export porcelain. I can forward pics to who-ever wants it. The porcelain shards would give us an opportunity to date the ship with-in a period of 30 years. We collect porcelain shards from the beach for all our SA Portuguese wrecks and date and identify the wrecks by dating the porcelain shards.
Would appreciate as many pics as possible. I did e-mail Dr Noli - lets hope he can/will reply. Any ideas from your side - anybody of the diamond people who you can reccommend me contacting to offer my help/co-operation. You are welcome to send my e-mails to who-ever you wish. My aim is to collect as much info as possible and help where I can.
Cheers Paul"
Thanks, we appreciate the update. Keep it coming -
Yep! Great topic.
I just hear from a reliable source that a container full of coins (sparkling ones) has been found on the wreck yesterday afternoon...they have been removed to a secure location for cleaning..... Hoping to meet the good Dr in the store tonight for more info....
At Last, the COmpany makes a statement... from todays Newsletter...
Better late then never. I think they realized its to much gossip going around.
You can never hold a sectret in O-mund LOL
MIB your job there is now redundant .. move on to Zim and start tailing mad Bob ...
Ongoing discussion..my next email...
"Hi Michael,
If some coins were indeed found and if you can get a date/s from some of those coins (a pic or two would be fantastic) I can get you a possible name for the shipwreck. If you see Dr Noli - please show him some of our communication and ask him to please contact me - he may not have e-mail facilities and may not read my e-mail to him.
Coins are always one of the best ways of identifying a ship. It can give you the nation, the approx date (the ship could not have been lost earlier than the latest date on the coins), the metal -gold,silver or bronze can give you history of routes etc etc - it is all part of a gaint jigsaw puzzle - exiting!
Cheers PAUL "
is'nt this stuff exciting folks?
Fascinating stuff - makes you wonder what other wrecks and mysteries are under the sand!
Had a very nice chat with Bob Burrell last night, he was the chap that found it. He wisely pointed out to me, it was perhaps a good thing that the wreck was located in MA1 (Mining Area 1), as this has allowed the wreck to be offlimits to the hordes of Treasure Hunters. Namdeb at the moment are still to decide what to do with the find and are fully aware of the sensitive nature of such a find.
Hopefully they sensitively decide that this is part of Namibia's history and not Namdeb's and make sure it is gifted to the country!
Mike, I never saw the original shipwreck topic that was closed by MIB. Now that all is out in the open, could you post it here so that I can see what started all the commotion?
Too late, too late, too late...
The early bird gets the worm.
Hi Florrie. Geez, this site is going mad. You can't miss a couple of days anymore. It's goten really hard to keep up with everything and everybody...
Florrie, I'm at home now... I'm afraid you'll have to wait till at least 2morrow when I goto work...my laptop is there.... :sorriso2:
Lazy excuse Michael You're doing this all the time. You just want that feeling people are interested in you... :emot172: :emot19:
I know I know...maybe I'll have to ask u to treat me.... :36_2_35:
Any Gold?
Hey Zorro, glad to see you here, It seems like Namdeb ain't spilling the beans just yet on the coins, I just know that it's gone for cleaning.... here's my next email from Dr.Paul Brandt
"Hi Michael, hope you are all having a good week-end! I am having sleepless nights about 'the wreck'. I agree fully - a good thing it lies in an protected area - lets just hope Namdeb gives Dr Noli the time, funds and infrastructure he will need to do this well. With the site being 'on-land' -wow! what an opportunity! My biggest fear is that ALL the artifacts dont end up in fresh water immediately - for those interested - depending on the type and material of the artifact -after recording, drawing, photographed, catalogued in-situ (where it was found) - it is removed and the start of treatment is for the artifact to be placed in regularly changed fresh water for up to a year - the real 'treatment' only now starts after this etc etc
I have not yet hear from Dr Noli or anybody from Namdeb - still hoping they would contact me. Should anybody wish to talk to me re this wreck or any other shipwreck/artifacts etc - please contact me at "
NEWSFLASH! NEWSFLASH! That pot of coins that was recovered has an estimated value of 2,2 Million u$ and their condition is neAR PERFECT.... Still no official comment........
It's great working in this shop, you hear everything...... My source is looking for a date for me.... on the coin Diana..... on the coin...
He he he Mike
Get some of those coins and the girls want dates galore LOL
Now why dont you post those pics again from the beginning, or are you not allowed too ???
No one can stop me to post them, i had them saved here and will pots them as soon as i have uploaded that to Photobuckt ore something like that
After all some pics were published in Newspapers why should we not show them in our board.
Here again the pics i had saved
Just to be on the safe side. Notice to Newspapers: Those Photos are not to be used, copy right !
some more
Just to be on the safe side. Notice to Newspapers: Those Photos are not to be used, copy right !
Last
Just to be on the safe side. Notice to Newspapers: Those Photos are not to be used, copy right !
Thank you. Wonder when we'll get to see the coins.
Quote from: Michael Alexander on April 20, 2008, 10:54:51 AM
It's great working in this shop, you hear everything...... My source is looking for a date for me.... on the coin Diana..... on the coin...
:
:sorriso2: You know me so well already :sorriso2:
We won't tell anyway Mike... swink
bling1
We knew you would Alfred. Yep. You are the true OM reporter.
daman daman
:emot77: we are waiting - but we are not patient!!!
Sorry you will have to wait a little longer................
Alfie's Back.... call of the search party..... laughpoint
Quote from: Michael Alexander on April 20, 2008, 09:19:50 AM
Hey Zorro, glad to see you here, It seems like Namdeb ain't spilling the beans just yet on the coins, I just know that it's gone for cleaning.... here's my next email from Dr.Paul Brandt
"Hi Michael, hope you are all having a good week-end! I am having sleepless nights about 'the wreck'. I agree fully - a good thing it lies in an protected area - lets just hope Namdeb gives Dr Noli the time, funds and infrastructure he will need to do this well. With the site being 'on-land' -wow! what an opportunity! My biggest fear is that ALL the artifacts dont end up in fresh water immediately - for those interested - depending on the type and material of the artifact -after recording, drawing, photographed, catalogued in-situ (where it was found) - it is removed and the start of treatment is for the artifact to be placed in regularly changed fresh water for up to a year - the real 'treatment' only now starts after this etc etc
Thank you Micheal can I call you Micheal or is it Mr Alexander
I have not yet hear from Dr Noli or anybody from Namdeb - still hoping they would contact me. Should anybody wish to talk to me re this wreck or any other shipwreck/artifacts etc - please contact me at "
Hi Zorro, i am Mike's secret weapon aT SPAR. This morning i met Dr Noli at a secret place,somewhere in Spar and handed over top secret papers bling1 i suppose it might have been some of your emails. get that MIke is on a mission to Cape Town to find cheaper prices, e180.
Cheaper prices for BierSuip
Good plan 99 quickdop
Nah he is going to buy old coins and try to sell them in town and say they came off the wreck bling1 and maybe some BierSuip laughpoint
Guys, I picked up a virus on my stick, havent got any backup photo's of the wreck won't be able to post!!!!!!
Sorry
Alfred
A course of anti biotics will help the virus :emot19:
Thanks Rhona tried all the antivirus packages I know but no help it's a cheap stick proberly best I throw it away and get a better type
Alfred
Quote from: Alfred Boehme on April 22, 2008, 07:33:10 PM
Guys, I picked up a virus on my stick, havent got any backup photo's of the wreck won't be able to post!!!!!!
Sorry
Alfred
hope you did not get it from the C.D.M network.
better phone your administrator
:emot19:
Don't think so whent to a guys place last night think I got it from there madashell
Hi Alfred
Here a link to microsoft
That will clear all malware on your drives and stick
http://suche.aol.de/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=bde188e4812645ed&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=microsoft+virus+scan&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fsecurity%2Fmalwareremove%2Fdefault.mspx&title=Malicious+Software+Removal+Tool&moduleId=matchingsites.jsp.M&clickedItemPageRanking=1&clickedItemPage=1&clickedItemDescription=WebResults
I see Koos is here so we will have fun with the Phantom of Sand City
About Koos
May that will help
Ask him his relation between Mike Stenson and Koos
Thanks I will try
Virus check
I have a very large PC 1,5 TB
It took hrs to run, pending on your PCs capacity
The virus i got from a mail, it said you have an electronic card, i opened and bingo, the virus was here......
Quote from: georgswa on April 22, 2008, 07:55:18 PM
Hi Alfred
Here a link to microsoft
That will clear all malware on your drives and stick
http://suche.aol.de/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=bde188e4812645ed&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=microsoft+virus+scan&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fsecurity%2Fmalwareremove%2Fdefault.mspx&title=Malicious+Software+Removal+Tool&moduleId=matchingsites.jsp.M&clickedItemPageRanking=1&clickedItemPage=1&clickedItemDescription=WebResults
I see Koos is here so we will have fun with the Phantom of Sand City
hi george
you have definitey made up my mind.
tommorrow im going to get a high speed internet link to check all those wonderfull things you post on this site.
i must be missing out.
cheers
your favoured Troll Koos
:sorriso2:
@ Koos you´re welcome
Once you have high speed like we have here in Germany you never want to go back again
Mine is still slow at 1.000 Mbits, available is already 16.000 Mbits
By the way, that virus link does not remove Aids, tell your high up wise idiots
Alfred .. be careful where you put your stick .. whats Diana going to say about this behaviour ??
Stop Stop all that high speed stuf I'm still on dailup on a good day 50kbps going to throw my computer away buy a pen and book proberly faster
Sorry Georg .. Our boozy health minister has been watching our site and has already recomended the link as an adjunct to the beetroot diet ...
Quote from: SandyB on April 22, 2008, 08:13:15 PM
Alfred .. be careful where you put your stick .. whats Diana going to say about this behaviour ??
Don't know maybe she will understand
Quote from: georgswa on April 22, 2008, 07:58:10 PM
About Koos
May that will help
Ask him his relation between Mike Stenson and Koos
yes mike stenson, me and him were at primary school together and my friend Ronny Yough
:emot19:
Hi Sandy. let him watch, he may learn some thing if he is able to understand what we talk about,
However i doubt that
Oh s....t i am at it again
MTN wireless anything between 125 - 585 kbps or whatever they called .......
Yes Koos i know , ha ha ha never seen you in my life, but i got secret powers here to identify you
So your buddy can not be far......
meanpuff
@ Georg .. thats what we like about you ... at it again .. never forgotten .. fondly remembered ..
@ Sandy, glad you like it today, lol
@ Alfred I hope we are talking about the right stick, dont mix that up !!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: georgswa on April 22, 2008, 08:08:56 PM
@ Koos you´re welcome
Once you have high speed like we have here in Germany you never want to go back again
Mine is still slow at 1.000 Mbits, available is already 16.000 Mbits
i hope you put your seat belt on when you launch that pc of yours.
ever considered selling some of that power back to microsoft
i think you got more memory and bandwidth than the whole cape town put together
notfair
@ Koos
The bandwidth i have is one of the slower ones, i need faster. Do a lot of large file uploading and videos
My storge is some few external HDD between 250 and 500 MB each and one to travel with to save pictures
Its called a picture tank and works of the car battery, need that to stor pictures
Modern cameras in Raw format take mor then 12 MB space per picture unless i use JPG wit about 2-3 MB/pic
Thats why i have all that
georgwa
send me message by email, so i can record your email address
i am using a webmail account
i want to tell you a story so you can really have a good laugh at this troll
Share the story........
Them posting things here about bandwidth and trolls and laughing and viruses and sticks - seems like they plan to wreck the whole bloody ship again.....
Check out Georgswa banding away width his computor...
:36_2_35:
hey koos did you read that SIMPLE MACHINES FORUM SOFTWARE MANUAL i send to you last year.
it sure could come in handy now.
Quote from: georgswa on April 22, 2008, 08:08:56 PM
@ Koos you´re welcome
Once you have high speed like we have here in Germany you never want to go back again
Mine is still slow at 1.000 Mbits, available is already 16.000 Mbits
i think it goes to 32000 Mbits already...
Quote from: Koos on April 22, 2008, 08:16:48 PM
Quote from: georgswa on April 22, 2008, 07:58:10 PM
About Koos
May that will help
Ask him his relation between Mike Stenson and Koos
yes mike stenson, me and him were at primary school together and my friend Ronny Yough
:emot19:
Hey Koos. Careful with the spelling.
Ronny Young!
Quote from: Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee) on April 22, 2008, 09:36:12 PM
Them posting things here about bandwidth and trolls and laughing and viruses and sticks - seems like they plan to wreck the whole bloody ship again.....
Check out Georgswa banding away width his computor...
You mus lubricate your lines to make them faster.
The type lubricant used for that is is Bandgrease bling1
Sticks,viruses,lubricants..........what a ship wreck we have here.
Quote from: Diana Rudd (Boehme) on April 23, 2008, 09:20:01 AM
Sticks,viruses,lubricants..........what a ship wreck we have here.
Ask your little brother , he started with his stick LOL
I hope he got rid of the virus
He better have else I'll have to tell Mommy.
That bandgrease lubricant might be a good thing as a cure for Alfred with the virus in his stick?
@ Alfred
Hope you have your stick ready to post the ships pics ?????? Howsit ??? idontknow
Quote from: georgswa on April 23, 2008, 04:08:52 PM
@ Alfred
Hope you have your stick ready to post the ships pics ?????? Howsit ??? idontknow
No nothing working did try
@ Alfred Gather you stick is well and truly f..... by its virus attack ... me always careful about putting my stick into strange ports .... Now Diana is definitely going to tell auntie Elsie what you been up to ..
@ Alfred, pity dont work
Can you get those pics again ??? i hope so
Quote from: georgswa on April 23, 2008, 07:41:30 PM
@ Alfred, pity dont work
Can you get those pics again ??? i hope so
Will try
Any new info about the wreck, the treasures, etc...
Alfred, grab that dr. Nollie - drag him to your computor - put that big dog of your's on guard and make him post here!
Quote from: SandyB on April 23, 2008, 07:39:01 PM
@ Alfred Gather you stick is well and truly f..... by its virus attack ... me always careful about putting my stick into strange ports .... Now Diana is definitely going to tell auntie Elsie what you been up to ..
:36_2_35: laughpoint :emot112_2:
I believe the MIB had a hand in this unfortunate corruption.
They are still searching for the captain bling1 .I believe he haas the answer to this mystery,hey Mike where are you ,some people are lost inside here. laughpoint iknow
Found the captain...
looks more like mugabes people on the run jnr,
I think Bobs people are to fat to run.
Quote from: SandyB on April 23, 2008, 07:39:01 PM
@ Alfred Gather you stick is well and truly f..... by its virus attack ... me always careful about putting my stick into strange ports .... Now Diana is definitely going to tell auntie Elsie what you been up to ..
Looks like my "computer memory stick" has had to much cyber sex
cheerup :36_2_35: :36_4_8:
cl1 Sies Alfred go wash your mouth out immediately. :clean4: and then floss go as well.
You tell him Diana -
Oooooooooops
Seems we have found a substitute for Keiths´s pole
Alfred where are the pics ??? We want to see them chop chop
...and make sure they are in ship shape... LOL
:emot19: Good one Andrew!~
Ok.... I have not read the topic on what I missed out on whilst I was on holiday.... I have only been in town for two hours.... but somebody just told me... that they found human bones there... is this true? I also heard that the good Dr... working at the site is in fact a geologist and not an Archaeologist ....... is this true? Anyone? Is the site being excavated in the right way? Anyone? Damn.,.... where are my sources when you need them....
idontknow
Human bones??? tell me more - I'm sitting up and I'm eager...........somebody; somewhere tell me more pls
What do you want to know Mike? You and the good Dr Noli are going to have a nice chat one of these days Mike,courtesy by me of course,seems like you gonna have to have lots of beer though.....Well the good news that he told me is that they are still excavating and that he will have a show in about 2 weeks time for the town folks,and the gold coins keep coming up... gnite
Human bones... well yes, if my memory of the human skeleton serves me correctly. I saw a something like 2ribs and a stukkie spine. Whoah man its freaky.. that guys been there nearly 400 years. I scratched a little more and tipped over a styrofoam bakkie ... on the piece of clingwrap was a SPAR price sticker "COOKED RIBBETJIE PER KG" WAAAhaaaa hahah heeheee. Busted!!! Does anyone really think I want those dudes in black suits at my door... 4get it Bro.
Jokes aside. I'll reveal the truth of what I saw once the report is out. [suspense]
@ Andrew :emot19:
@ Andrew :emot19:
Quote from: georgswa on April 26, 2008, 03:11:48 PM
Seems we have found a substitute for Keiths´s pole
Alfred where are the pics ??? We want to see them chop chop
I've lost all my photo's
:emot78:
NO WAY................ Tell us you are only kidding pls
Serious
:36_2_24:
Oh sh....t pls
Georg .. your tongue got a touch of purple on it .. have you been at my shiraz while i was out ?? actually I went to Sloppy Sams in green point 2 nite .. I went incognito .. Hooman Saffarian .. he married Karin Hoffmann .. I gave Hooman a lift up to O'mund about 1979 , thats when the paw paw hit the fan in Iran .. he had met Karin in London and his family advised him to not to return to iran so he opted to come to SA .. was at Betty Wallis's boarding house in sea point .. I was asked if I could give him a lift up to O'mund so that he could join Karin .. anyhow .. me went there incognito .. next time i go with Richard and Debbie ... will re introduce myself .. many years and water under the bridge .. Nice food .. greek with a persian touch ... bought a packet of sundried limes as well to add to stew.. stunning .. used the arab version of dried lemons before .. so see what dimension this adds ......
Hi Sandy and everyone,hate to break the news to you but they have covered the ship with sand and boulders,maybe they have found enough,but as i saw it, there were still lots to be dug out. notfair :36_2_24: Somebody is going to blow a gasket........
Huh !! ?? they must be totaly moggy ...
uh you mean groggy....... too much gold perhaps...... bling1
Quote from: SandyB on April 29, 2008, 08:46:46 PM
Georg .. your tongue got a touch of purple on it ..
I am a descendant of the Sharpei ( Japaneese fighting dog ) or was it polar bear
Er how about roll mop? eh! bling1
Quote from: Adriaan Van Rooyen on April 29, 2008, 09:31:30 PM
Er how about roll mop? eh!
Has the Rollmops got a tongue ? mine here only have a tothpick stack through them
Yep, I saw that today. Looks like site has been capped to prevent looters from helping themselves. Reckon the loot is worth more than the diamonds in the bedrock.
Sorry to say but no more pics will be available. Alf, you can chill now, hopefully you won't be bugged for more pics, cos even if your stick is up the pole and the camera was ok, the curtain has closed and the fat lady has sung.
The men in their black suits can now go and hassle Bob Magabe or try and save the Scorpions b4 Zuma stamps them out. Eish, man a showa ees not going too get reed of these guys.
Georgswa and myself received emails from a reporter with the Afrikaans national newspaper , the Republikein , about the wreck. I got a message from SPar telling me that she left a number for me to call her back, which I did..... She told me that they were going to print an article on the wreck and that she had already spoken to Dr. Nolie.... who told her that Namdeb should be realeasing a media brief in two weeks on the find.... I was more curious to know how she found our site.... She googled us........ Men in Black.....nothing to do with me....... :36_2_35:
Here we go, another well known publication has published something....
http://www.miningweekly.com/article.php?a_id=132428
...and now the news is spreading like a wildfire..... NEWS24 have got it...
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2315370,00.html
Yoo Hoo ! .. MIB driving off into the horizon in their black toyota verso .. fuming under their tight collars ........the news is out and they have no control ... a new mining activity for Namdeb . push abck the sea and find wrecks ??
Still nothing from AZ and Republikein ????
I have found nothing
Hi Folks,
Article of Oranjemund shipwreck as in today's Cape Times, Cape Town newspaper.
Very interesting to think this ship has been under the sand for all this time.
Could have beached before Columbus found the "new world" or before the English destroyed the Spanish armada?
Enjoy.
Cheers
Richard
Thanks Richard for the info
I searched the net, can not find the article, have you got a link so we can read......
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/shipnews.jpg)
The AZ now also wakes up
http://www.az.com.na/lokales/diamantsuche-gibt-and-schatz-and-frei.66182.php
Link: http://www.az.com.na/lokales/diamantsuche-gibt-and-schatz-and-frei.66182.php
Link: http://news.orf.at/?href=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.orf.at%2Fticker%2F288060.html
Link: http://lizzysmusings.blogspot.com:80/2008/05/treasure-ship-found-off-coast-of.html
Here's a better scan of the above article in the Cape Times today..... I believe the good Dr will be delivering a presentation in 2 weeks to the local community.... I also believe that the site has been covered over and marked with stones...I have no idea what thats about.... Thanks Jeremy for the scan....
Ha... and another article just been emailed to me.... brief mention of the site...
"Sperrgebiet maak venster oop op nuwe skat
Dr. Dieter Noli, die argeoloog wat die skeepswrak bestudeer, tel die munte wat by die wrak gevind is.
DIE moontlikheid dat die skeepswrak wat aan die begin van April by Oranjemund ontdek is die van Diago Cão is, is gister deur kenners op die gebied van Portugese seevaart geuiter.
'n Skoen en ander versierings wat aan adellikes in Portugal verbind word en 'n been wat by die wrak ontdek is, hou die sleutel tot die raaisel van die skip wat volgens aanvanklike inligting deel kon wees van die karavele van die eerste Portugese seevaarders Cão, Vasco da Gama en Dias wat die kus van Afrika verken en die seeroete na die Ooste ontdek het.
Die vonds wat een van die belangrikste in die geskiedenis van Afrika en seevaart in sy geheel kan wees, is volgens aanvanklike berigte reeds op 1 April gemaak, maar is tot Woensdag onder die dekmantel gehou weens die sensitiewe aard daarvan.
Volgens 'n berig in die Sperrgebiet Gazette van 17 April 2008 het mnr. Bob Burrell, Namdeb se bestuurder van minerale hulpbronne, die wrak ontdek terwyl hy besig was met roetine inspeksies by Mynarea 1. Die wrak was aanvanklik sowat ses meter onder seëvlak voor die gebied waar dit gevind is, drooggelê is.
Die gebied wat sowat 12 km noord van die Oranjerivier geleë is, het na bewering 'n skat opgelewer van Spaanse en Portugese goue munte ter waarde van meer as US$2 miljoen, 58 olifanttande en 6 kanonne met 1 500 kg se koperballe wat as koeëls vir die kanonne gebruik is, pewter tafelware, wapens en navigasietoerusting.
Die skip wat na bewering as 'n handelskip diens gedoen het, was blykbaar onderweg na Indië of onderweg na sy tuisland toe dit aan die suidelike kus van Namibië in die moeilikheid geraak het. "Weens die groot hoeveelheid goue munte en ivoor wat by die wrak gevind is, kan ons nie sê of die skip onderweg na Indië was of reeds vandaar teruggekom het nie.
Die hoeveelheid munte dui aan dat hulle nog daarheen onderweg was, maar die ivoor wat gevind is, kan daarop dui dat die skip reeds vanuit die Ooste teruggekeer het," het mnr. Helifa Mbako, groepsbestuurder van buite aangeleenthede en korporatiewe kommunikasie by Namdeb, by navraag aan Republikein gesê. Kenners op die gebied van Portugese seevaart verskil van mekaar oor of die skip na die Ooste onderweg was en of dit reeds die terugtog na Portugal aangepak het.
Dr. Valerie Esterhuizen, verbonde aan die Sentrum vir Portugese Seevaartstudies, is van mening dat die skip steeds onderweg was na die Ooste. Sy skryf: "Omdat daar skynbaar geen Oosterse ware, soos onder andere porseleinskerwe, tussen die wrakstukke is nie, wil dit voorkom dat dit 'n uitvarende skip was." 'n Kenner in Portugal, kommandeur Malhao Pereira, voorheen verbonde aan die seevaarskool in Lissabon, is egter van mening dat die skip onderweg was na Portugal.
Dit is hoe die goue Spaanse munte lyk.
"Dit wil vir my voorkom of die skip op sy terugtog was, nie alleen weens die ligging daarvan nie, maar ook aangesien dit reeds 'gode' (die olifanttande) aan boord gehad het." Dr. Paul Brandt, 'n maritieme argeoloog ook van die Sentrum vir Portugese Seevaartstudies, wat in Pretoria gestasioneer is en aan 'n webwerf vir oud-Oranjemunders se kletskamer oor die skeepswrak deelgeneem het, is die kanonne wat gevind is dekgemonteerde draaikanonne wat tot in die 1500's veral op Portugese skepe gebruik is.
Hy bevestig ook in sy skrywe op die kletskamer dat die ivoor op die skip kan aandui dat dit reeds vanuit die Ooste op pad terug na sy tuisland was, maar sê ook dat die moontlikheid bestaan dat die skip 'n weskus slaweskip was wat die olifanttande in Luanda aan boord geneem het, 'n mening wat ook deur dr. Esterhuizen gelig is.
"Om die skip te identifiseer as komend uit Indië is dit nodig om die muntstukke, karneoolse krale en Chinese uitvoerporselein te sien. Die porseleinskerwe sal ons in staat stel om die skip binne 'n tydperk van 30 jaar te dateer," skryf dr. Brandt. Hy voeg ook by dat sou hy van die munte wat gevind is onder oë kon kry, hy 'n moontlike naam aan die gesonke skip sou kon heg.
"Die munte is die beste manier om die skip uit te ken. Dit kan aan jou die nasionaliteit, die naastenbye datum (die skip kon nie verlore gegaan het voor die datum van die laaste munte nie) gee. Die metaal – goud, silwer of brons, kan aan jou die geskiedenis van die roetes wat dit gevolg het gee, ensovoorts. Alles deel van die groot legkaart – opwindend!"
Die wrak word gereken as die oudste wat nog in Sub-Sahara Afrika ontdek is. "Die vonds is waarvoor ek al vir 20 jaar wag," het dr. Dieter Noli, die argeoloog wat die wrak bestudeer, gister in 'n onderhoud met Associated Press (AP) gesê.
Hy en sy kollega, dr. Bruno Werz, is tans besig met die inventering van die vonds en die doen van navorsing in Namibiese en Suid-Afrikaanse museums en biblioteke en sal binnekort na Portugal en Spanje vertrek, wie se skepe besonder aktief was in die tydperk waaruit hulle vermoed die wrak dateer. "Jy laat nie 'n skipper vry met 'n vrag so waardevol soos hierdie en hou nie rekord daarvan nie," het dr. Noli aan AP gesê. "
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 02, 2008, 02:14:36 PM
I also believe that the site has been covered over and marked with stones...I have no idea what thats about.... Thanks Jeremy for the scan....
I guess thats outlining the ships wrack for digging purpose
At least we now get a bit of info.
Georg, sorry misread there...covered over, closed in with sand......still trying to get confirmation from a second source...
Sue just phoned to say that Gerald had just listened to a radio discussion, talking about the wreck.... now the news is moving......
There was an article in the Pretoria News today about the ship wreck.... hoolahoop1
Hey guys
Nothing on the internet can really be removed, and Google have articles cached.
So I think the piece that everyone is talking about, that has been removed is over here:
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:2qru10-u3aMJ:www.oranjemundonline.com/Forum/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1324.120+shipwreck+in+oranjemund+with+gold&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=za
Regards
Quote from: Jonno on May 02, 2008, 04:35:10 PM
Hey guys
Nothing on the internet can really be removed, and Google have articles cached.
So I think the piece that everyone is talking about, that has been removed is over here:
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:2qru10-u3aMJ:www.oranjemundonline.com/Forum/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1324.120+shipwreck+in+oranjemund+with+gold&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=za
Regards
Hi Jonno
Welcoming your first post
Your link brings as back to this topic here
The removed portions dont show up
Not so important any more, since now the story is out
Hi Jonno...... that link goes to the middle of this current topic, the last time the googlebots cached the site.... there was an original shipwreck topic, that had some people in positions in a bit of a tizz over their pics being pasted on this forum....
Thanks though
Cheers
Mike
Hey guys
Oh I see, sorry I had not gone through the whole of the forum. This is all quite interesting though, amazing that things such as this still get found. It's really cool, pity it's so censored!
hi mike,
i was listening to kfm today and heard about the shipwreck article. ithen phoned kfm and spoke to charmain noyes. told her about this website that she could possibly see more pictures. also gave her your name to contact about more info. you could also contact her..........charmain@kfm co za.
never know the site could set aginormous amount of hits from people wanting to find out more.
regards chris...
For all those lurkers in here getting lost.... the pics are here.... http://www.oranjemundonline.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1324.120
correct Mike, the ship has been covered up totally by sand and boulders but is still out of bounds. gnite
Why?
I think thats normal. With all the coins to be found, wonder how many have already disappeared in pockets.
Call me and i recover them chop chop
But what i know you rotten lot, you want let me in........
Mike how about making a new topic about that. Move all relevant things in there and lock the topic.
story was on sky news this morning
hey koos identify urself !!!! or else chris ,diana and rhona{who has contacts in IRA} will hunt u down............ shooter shooter shooter shooter shooter shooter
I think Koos is in a difficult position. He has become such a part of this forum and I for one, enjoy his input but due to his very first posting, he is too scared to reveal himself as many have not forgiven him for teling us to get a life. Koos, you have redeemed yourself and obviously enjoy the forum too or you also need to get a life, so we will not hold your first comment against you, you can reveal yourself now. (Not physically please, just your name)
florrie {koos} is to bang to show who he is, so he tries to show himself as the "phantom" so that us mortals cannot detect him. but u and i will hunt him down. shooter shooter shooter shooter shooter shooter
chris........
Quote from: Chris Macpherson on May 02, 2008, 09:31:24 PM
hey koos identify urself !!!! or else chris ,diana and rhona{who has contacts in IRA} will hunt u down............ shooter shooter shooter shooter shooter shooter
koos allso has contacts in the IRA
hey Chris for a newcomer you doing all right, just watch out that your contacts dont bite you in the arse
:emot19:
I believe that the reason the site has been covered over, is due to the fact that the dig team has left town for the weekend, and are awaiting experts to arrive (from portugal?)..... the mine has been generous and placed a high number of security camera's around the area 24/7 to prevent any of their workforce who reside on the mine from digging for gold........
I also heard, that the reason Dr.Nolie never made any official statements was due to the fact that he wanted to have the correct facts and dates before going public.He is more than happy to share his find but just wants the correct information to be told as his name will forever be connected to the find. This is understandable.
Can't wait for his presentation though....
pls
On the coins that were found, is the Maltese Cross, or the Cross of St Johns of Malta. The same big red cross you see on the sails of those Spanish Sailing boats of the time...Around the edge of the coin, is inscribed..."Under this sign, we shall conquer"...... the interesting point being, the the Nights Tempelars at the same cross with the inscription, Under this cross, we shall conquer"....
what a lekker moto.... I thought....you can just feel it.....
Those intrepid fearless explorers ,charting unknown waters .. yes that motto would have served them well ...
Article in today's Sunday Times - quite a story, they think this is maybe one of the first arms deals?
i take it that all survived the wreck,if they had arms,they could all swim,on the other hand i dont know if in them days they had swimming lessons,richard dont you think that the news papers are after readership,pardon the pun,they will sensationalise the story to the hilt,its what sells the papers and make the owners and editors rich,we know!
One of London's most popular newspapers, The Metro, which is handed out at train stations and on the Underground, published a small article about the shipwreck along with a photo of Dieter Nolli ans some of the coins. It is officially global.
Bobbysmith, i don't think that they could swim,just like todays fisherman,what is the use of falling overboard in the middle of the ocean and then swimmin g to where!!!!Just drown boy lekke fast way to go bling1
Hey, David Hughes.,... back with us again.... Somebody said that there was a massive rock against the wreck.... as if the ship had smashed into it and sand...remember that this spot is actually below sea level...... perhaps a storm.... in the darkness....lost there way....crunch..... it would have gone down quickly with all that weight on...... man...if only we knew.....
Hello all. I am afraid I am not an Oranjemunder, but I am a Portuguese underwater archaeologist... :)
That gold coin, the one with the latin inscription "In Hoc Signo Vinces" (with this sign we win) is Portuguese 10 cruzados coin from King João III (first stamped October 1525). If that gold coin is indeed from that wreck (and a highly hypothetical contamination from another hypothetical wreck in the vicinity can be discarded) then the "terminus post quem" date for the loss of this ship would be October 1525 - it could not have wrecked earlier than this.
It is my educated opinion, based on whatever photographs and information have leaked out, that this site this definitely has the signature of a Portuguese ship, taking into account the geography and the guessed time period (first half of the 16th century?)- the treaties of Alcacovas (1479) and Tordesilhas (1494) as well as the Papal bules of Inter Caetera I, Eximia Devotiones, Inter Caetera II and Dudum Siquidem (1493) are all in favour of this hypothesis.
That gold coin (a "Portuguese", heavier and purer in gold than anything else before, struck between 1495 and 1538 only by two kings, Manuel I and João III, with the gold recently gained via their access to the subsaharian gold routes) was the favourite means of payment for the Indian pepper.
The copper ingots were there for the same reason: imported into Portugal free of tax by Holy Roman Empire bankers, such as the Fuggers and the Welsers, they were also used to buy pepper. Remember that, unlike the Spanish that conquered and populated Central and South America, the Portuguese only fought now and then and always to conquer a foothold into the Asian markets – they went there, all right, but they still had to buy the stuff, it was not theirs for the taking.
So, this must have been a ship going to India to trade there, not a returning ship.
From the Portuguese side, I am very happy that these artifacts belong now to the Namibian people - as part of Humanity's cultural heritage, I am pretty certain these remains will be studied in depth. After all, despite all our maritime tradition, there's not a single Portuguese ship from this period that has been archaeologicaly studied.
I sure hope the archaeologists involved, De Beers and the Nabimian Cultural Authorities can be the first ones the shed some light on this matter.
But here, in Portugal, I am burning with a lot of factual questions... are there any inscriptions on the cannons? I saw some ship timbers? How much survives of the ship itself? That wood and the information it carries is more precious to us than the gold...
Very interesting facts and conclusion Alexandre. Thank you!
Well... it's just a theory. One cannot do archaeology by proxy, without being on site... ;)
But it's a start. It would help to see what is the latest coin present, so we could start rummaging through the archives here and name that wreck.
@ Alexandre - it would be great if you could stay active on this forum and give feedback on the progress as you perceive it from where you are. I truly hope that you are able to gather more detailed information in order for you to study the history of the wreck to sort of aprox the date as close as possible. It would be a true treasure if you will be able to actually name the ship in the end. I do presume that logs dating as far back as the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries still do exist somewhere in archives and museums?
Thank you so much for your input and the info thus far. I think most of us appreciate it very deeply.
Alexandre', welcome, great experience..... Loved your post.... As you know the big debate, was the boat on it's wasy south or North? You say South to trade.....however how would one explain the Elephant tusks? Where did they come from...?
On another point, I was talking to Jim Murray..... if you know his history, while up at Ebay, they were involved in Diving as part of their work for the mine. It turns out that they found quite a bit of heavy Spanish/Portuguese coins there also... they had constructed a diving platform for various purposes. They applied to the GM of the time, Mr Develin if they could dive for the wreck, which they felt sure had to be in the area...Mr Devlin told them ...under no circumstances would the mine allow that.... he was sure that they would have found it..... Thats wreck No1....
Now he tells of another story, which my father also heard about from some old timers when he got here in 72. The Caravelle in the desert.... a bush pilot, I mentioned this story earlier, saw the wooden structure of a Caravelle about 70 m inland from the sea, half covered in the Dunes..... this wreck is more towards the Northern areas of the mine...but nobody ever found it.... But the old timers know it's there/.....
One wonders how much of these wrecks are being destroyed due to the mining activities of the Offshore diamond boats sucking up the seabed.........
And YEs! Alexandre' is right, the wreck itself is worth more than all the gold recovered... What about this theory.... the ship was not alone, but maybe a fleet of 3 boats.... a great storm in the dark, seperated them and spread the wrecks along the Sperrgebiedt coast.... wrecking them....and thus ..we have the 3 wrecks.... missing...until now.....
Alexandre' , was there ever any "fleet" going missing down the south coast of Africa?
I was telling hubby Keith about the treasure/shipwreck and he told me he already knew something about it!!!! Evidently when he started work in O/M in the early1970s at the old Central Fields near the Tank Farm, 2 of the guys he worked with Eddie Watson and Hennie Genade who were very keen Anglers,told Keith, The Angling Club Members had been finding coins on the beach for years!!!!! Keith can't remember where this beach was, but he thinks it was where the Anglers use to go away for long weekends or more and there was the remnants of an old Whaling Station there.Keith says it's not mentioned where your wreck was found, but if it's not THERE then there's probably more than one wreck. P'raps some of the Anglers from "back in the day!!" might be able to supply more information.
Hey I'm getting the hang of this!!!!!! meanpuff
Pam, thats a different wreck, and is much further up the coast past Luderitz at a place called Meob bay...the angling club still goes up there every month.The coins they find up there are from a later era and are mostly dutch East India coins and therefore from 1670- 1780..... the current wreck is over a hundred years older than the wreck at meob. In actual fact as far as I know, the wreck up at Meob, has never been found.... there are just stories of how every now and again, these coins wash up on the remote beach's.....in fact Adriaan brought us a few samples of those coins about 2 years back and they seemed to be made from a very corrosive substance and in poor shape.....
welcome to the om family alexandre,great history lesson,please keep us posted on your wealth of knowledge,on a different track,i find it fascinating that the om web site has brought you and michael together and that you share his family surname with your first name,i hope we learn more.
Thank you all, for the warm welcoming. I am on a 36 hour sleepless night, so I am going to crash into bed right now. But I will return again, tomorrow, with another clue regarding the ivory trade and the Indian versus African elephant tusk feud... ;)
Hope you have a good sleep - we novices need your brain to be sharp in this topic. (LOL)
You can answer this tomorrow: is there a way to determine wether ivory that old had come from an African or an Indian elephant? (Slap me silly - I presume there must be, for nowadays they match teeth to a specific person, so why not determine the ivory origin to a species.) Did I just now answer my own question -?
Alexandre .. thanks for the input on the wreck so far .. the whole topic of this is fascinating .. keep us posted ..
Great to have you on board Alexandre.....interesting stuff
The rumuor mill has started up again, I believe Dr.Nolie will be returning to town today. I als believe that their is a governement delegation en route for a site visit. Somebody told somebody, that some of the old guns are actually fossilised into the rock already and thus difficult to extract. Alexandre' how does this work? Has the wreck been lying long enough for this to happen?
ANother interesting email From Paul... nice to see that he has resurfaced. swink . I include is email.
"Hi Michael, I am now also back in civilization again and can pick-up on happenings. I see the news has now hit right across the world and even I am quoted from the time before the first coins were found. I am glad to see that Alexandre is now talking/taking part in/on the forum -he is probably one of the world's most knowledgable Maritime archaeologists - especially when it involves Portuguese Maritime history and archaeology.
Good to see the site is now covered up - lets hope it is in preparation for an joint international project!
For the men in black monitoring the site :-) - the best people to involve in such a joint project would be the Instiute for Nautical Archaeology (INA) at Texac A&M University, USA. The person there who has worked and published in the field of Portuguese maritime archaeology is Prof Filipe Castro fvcastro@tamu.edu . I would say he is THE person to have on such a project jointly with our own archaeologists. Website for his site is
http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/ . All the information and expertise is available - it is only for NAMDEB to ask!
It is also great to see that Dr Bruno Werz has joined the project - one of South Africa's best Maritime archaeologists!
I will now stop pestering you with e-mails and watch from the sidelines as the xperts take over.
Best regards
Paul Brandt
Centre for Portuguese Nautical Studies/Maritimeafrica.org"
Hey Mike,now all we have to do now is let Wilbur Smith loose on this topic and voila,what a whopper of a book it should be, meanpuff, carrying us all back to the time the ship struck. Pam the coins we picked up at Meob Bay was VOC 1742 coins, i think my father and some one else i am not sure, are also in possesion of a silver pieces of eight coin,perhaps our good friend ALEXANDRE can elaborate a bit more on that. bling1 pls
Quote from: Adriaan Van Rooyen on May 07, 2008, 07:12:57 PM
Pam the coins we picked up at Meob Bay was VOC 1742 coins, i think my father and some one else i am not sure, are also in possesion of a silver pieces of eight coin,perhaps our good friend ALEXANDRE can elaborate a bit more on that. bling1 pls
"In 1964, a group of scientists from the U.S. were doing a diamond prospecting survey near the Skeleton Coast of Namibia. While they were on the beach they began finding hundreds of silver coins. Most of them were Dutch VOC coins with some scatterings of Spanish Pieces of Eight. The coins varied in dates from 1744 to 1746. In the sea the scientists spotted a ballast pile and several bronze cannons. They even filmed the event on 16mm filmcamera and later had it edited onto video. Copies of this film are very rare and hard to find. The shipwreck from which the coins and cannons must come from is believed to be the VLISSINGEN. Travelling from Holland to India via the Cape, she ran aground around Meob (halfway between Luederitz and Walvis Bay) at the Namibian coast in 1747."
Bibliography and Sources:
Bruijn, J.R., Gaastra, F.S., Schöffer, I. Dutch-Asiatic Shipping In The 17th and 18th Centuries (3 Vols). The Hague, 1979, 1987
Now that I have dealt with this dutch ship, and if you excuse me, let me put my 9 mont baby up to bed and let me return to this shipwreck of ours in a couple of hours and have a go at the ivory... :)
Nine month old baby......! gee alex now i feel like a flippen grandfather,thanx for the info.. gnite cl1
Alexandre .. I was trying to post with the words my reply about the skeleton coast but I dnt know whats going on .. either the site or my server .. clunky as hell worse then mweb dial up .. my quote ... Well .. our coastline was not called the ' skeleton" coast for nothing hey ?? like some have said .. there must be a lot more wrecks lying about undiscovered ...
@ Mike when things slow down the emoticons seem to be more of a hinderance gettting themelves downloaded ,, superflous ??
I try again to post a reply for the umpteenth time and al the darn things are still hanging in the air and slowing tings down....
Quote from: Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee) on May 06, 2008, 08:41:14 AM
@ Alexandre - it would be great if you could stay active on this forum and give feedback on the progress as you perceive it from where you are. I truly hope that you are able to gather more detailed information in order for you to study the history of the wreck to sort of aprox the date as close as possible. It would be a true treasure if you will be able to actually name the ship in the end. I do presume that logs dating as far back as the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries still do exist somewhere in archives and museums?
Thank you so much for your input and the info thus far. I think most of us appreciate it very deeply.
Well, like I said earlier, it is pretty much unethical to do archaeology by proxy.. After all, who better than the archaeologists that are on site to analyse the artefacts and reach some conclusion based on hard evidence?
Anyhow, opinionated as I am, I do have an opinion, a date and a name... :)
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 06, 2008, 02:42:43 PM
Alexandre', welcome, great experience..... Loved your post.... As you know the big debate, was the boat on it's wasy south or North? You say South to trade.....however how would one explain the Elephant tusks? Where did they come from...?
Alexandre' , was there ever any "fleet" going missing down the south coast of Africa?
Not a whole fleet, as far as I can recall, but there have been some horrific losses. I do remember quite well the case of the 1615 armada, of which I have found the wreck site of the Capitania - of the five that were dispatched to India, only one managed to reach Lisbon.
In another case I am working, the Santa Catarina made an uneventeful voyage all the way to India and back, only to be wrecked 20 miles West of Lisbon. more that 600 drowned, only 12 escaped...
As for the Ivory, one of our colleagues from India, Sila Tripati, has done a very good work on the ivory trade in the 16th century based on what he has found so far in Indian waters, so I will draw extensively from his data.
The basic pattern of trade of the Portugal to India route was to bring soldiers, trade goods, administrators, furniture, war material, building material, etc. to the region and on return carry spices, porcelain, cloth, silk, rice, timber and finished manufactured products.
Commodities like ivory, gold and some precious metals were brought to Goa in Portuguese ships in exchange for Indian spices, cloth and foodgrains. The main items of export by the Portuguese were pepper, ginger and other spices from Malabar and Karnataka, cotton and silk from Bijapur, Bengal, Cambay and Golconda, cinnamon from Ceylon, and mace, nutmeg and clove from the Maluccas and Banda Islands. Similarly, ivory, gold, slaves, precious metals, stones, corals and other articles of trade were brought to Goa from Mozambique, Mombasa, Sofala, Angola and other places in Africa.
The Portuguese generated huge revenue and wealth by trading with these centres, with ivory being one of their most profitable commodities. Ivory brought to Goa (from Lisbon, in the first half of the 16th century and from then onwards from Mozambique), was dispatched to Cambay, Surat and other places in Gujarat because artisans concentrated in this region were more skilled than those in other regions.
So, the Portuguese mainly dealt with high demand goods which could fetch large profits, with ivory being one of the most profitable among these. Understanding the importance of and high demand for ivory in India, they imported it from African countries – like the Skeleton Coast, the Ivory Coast designation is pretty much self explanatory - to meet this demand-
Ivory from the African elephant (Loxodonta Africana) is much better in quality than the Asian elephant (Elephas maximus) because of its superior hardness, pale blonde transparency and ability to be more finely polished. While african elephant tusks can measure up to 3 m in length with diameters of 9 to 11 cm and weights up to 90 kg, tusks of Asian elephants are smaller and lighter, are only sported by males (and not all of them) and their weight record still stands at 40 Kg. Although Indian ivory has been used for making miniature sculptures and artefacts since the beginning of the Bronze Age in India, it was unsuitable for making big sculptures because of its brittle texture, softness, opaqueness and tendency to discolour. Besides ivory statues, inlay ivory figures were incorporated in chairs, tables, wardrobes, chests, sofas and jewellery.
Here's more info on the dutch wreck VLISSINGEN:
Master: Adriaan Kakelaar,
Tonnage: 650
Built: 1732
Yard: Zeeland
Chamber: Zeeland
Date of departure: 09-01-1747
Place of departure: Rammekens
Total on Board: 214
Well the government delegation visited the site today, all stood around on a barren piece of ground looking quite amused, one wonders if us unprofessional people had to go there, if we would be disappointed.... I realise that just a sliver of an ancient piece of timber would cause quite a stir amongst the educated, whereas the rest of us would be expecting to see something that rose at least 10 feet above the desert, perhaps a sail flapping in the wind....a body, yes, a body or two in skeletal forms.... so I wonder what the government thought as they stood on that barren, windswept piece of the skeleton coast.
However I do believe they were whisked of to the "castle" to feast their curious eyes among the treasure.... coins, cannons and ingots...... damn! i wish I could have gone to the "castle"
On another point , thanks to Alexandre' on his explanations, fascinating stuff indeed. Another small question if you have time, what was the average crew for such a wreck as ours, and what was the average sailing time from Portugal to India?
I also heard from another person , that a good few months back , a solid "beam' of wood, in a curved shape, like that of a scorpions tail, but on a larger scale was found in the area, nobody knew or cared what it was, and it was just left , sticking up through the ancient sands, whilst the miners went about their task of recovering diamonds.... It is now known that this piece of wood, is part of that wreck.....
where to next will this wreck of ours take us......? One can only wonder, like a good Mystery novel...we turn the page....
So Mike,what are we going to discover next? The lost camel of the Namib!!! :emot26: Alexandre, i never really liked history,but hell you sure make it a interesting topic congrats,yes it is a pity they covered the wreck so fast,for the delegation that visited the site today it, would really have been something. bling1.
Thank you for your interesting facts Alexandre.
Mike were or what is the "castle" ?
Dont worry Jeremy he is in a drooling mood swink
Quote from: Jeremy Dixon on May 08, 2008, 07:57:54 PM
Mike were or what is the "castle" ?
I offer you a castle here
http://www.livevideo.com/video/Georgswa/323B60E7A4D747D7B8A0270FD6408A75/chateau-uss-fairy-tale-cast.aspx
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 07, 2008, 10:36:53 AM
Somebody told somebody, that some of the old guns are actually fossilised into the rock already and thus difficult to extract. Alexandre' how does this work? Has the wreck been lying long enough for this to happen?
Michael, the sea has a funny way to hold to whatever it has once claimed. An iron cannonbal might lie in the ocean bed for centuries. When a diver finds it and unplucks from it's watery grave, the sea will cast a spell into it: after a week at the surface, all those sodium chlorides that had migrated slowly into the very core of the metal, ions micro-inching year after year well within that Fe structure will explode the cannonball from the inside. It will even get too hot to be touched and all it will left of it will be a pile of red oxides.
All materials will be affected, to lesser or greater extent. All, that is, but gold (that's also why gold is so appreciated).
So, my greatest fear is for those wonderful things we have heard to have been found there: the muskets, the swords, the timbers, mainly the timbers. A piece of wood that has been soaking in water for 400 years might look like it was felled from a tree yesterday but looks are nothing more than appearances: a timber will be mostly water and it will need to be preserved in water until all that water insed can be replaced by PEG.
Have a look at this INA page http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File0.htm (http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File0.htm) - the institute cited by Paul Brandt up in this thread, who is truly leading the way in whatever is being done worldwide regarding the preservation of artefacts recovered from the sea.
"Artifact preservation is one of the most important considerations when planning or implementing any action that will result in the recovery of material from a marine archaeological site. It is the responsibility of the excavator or salvor to see that material recovered is properly conserved. The conservation phase is time consuming and expensive, often costing more than the original excavation. Without conservation, however, most artifacts will perish, and important historic data will be lost. The loss is not just to the excavator but also to future archaeologists, who may wish to reexamine the material.
Artifacts recovered from a salt water environment are often well preserved but of a very friable nature. In general, artifacts recovered from anaerobic marine environments (i.e., buried in sediment) are recovered in better condition than artifacts recovered from aerobic marine environments (i.e., the water column and surface sediment). Artifacts not properly conserved in a timely manner are apt to deteriorate at a very rapid rate and subsequently become useless as diagnostic or display specimens. Organic material, i.e., leather, wood, textile, rope, plant remains, etc., if allowed to dry without conservation treatment, can crumble and become little more than a pile of dust and debris in a matter of hours. Iron, on the other hand, can last for a few days to months according to the size and density of the artifact; however, it too will eventually deteriorate and become useless as a display or diagnostic specimen. Bone, glass, pottery, and similar material will, if not conserved, slowly devitrify and, in extreme cases, degenerate to a pile of worthless slivers. For these reasons, conservation must be of paramount concern when the excavation of a marine archaeological site is considered."
As for those cannons (are they iron or bronze? bronze tends to, due to the toxicity of the copper used in the alloy, be relatively kept free of organic growth, a major factor in the "fossilization" process) they should be removed with the bedrock still attached, put into water and then worked upon by specialized technicians, armed with air guns and dentist picks...
Hi Alexandre,i was privvy to see some new photo's today,and it seems that most of the articles recovered are lying submerged in huge containers of water,i hope that will let you sleep better! cheerup
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 08, 2008, 06:55:19 PM
On another point , thanks to Alexandre' on his explanations, fascinating stuff indeed. Another small question if you have time, what was the average crew for such a wreck as ours, and what was the average sailing time from Portugal to India?
I also heard from another person , that a good few months back , a solid "beam' of wood, in a curved shape, like that of a scorpions tail, but on a larger scale was found in the area, nobody knew or cared what it was, and it was just left , sticking up through the ancient sands, whilst the miners went about their task of recovering diamonds.... It is now known that this piece of wood, is part of that wreck.....
Damn... here I am, useless, and you guys (an girls) with what appears to be the earliest wreck of a Portuguese ship in your hands!
You know, besides all that you can read in the history books - the Portuguese Maritime Empire, the first global sea discoverers, the heroes of early European navigation blah, blah, blah - there's not a single ship ever excavated archaeologically (the only exception is a piece of the bottom of a returning nau from 1606 and a frigate sunk in Mombasa, Kenya, from the late 17th century, beautifully excavated and published by INA).
So, no one knows how a Portuguese ship looked like, how it was built, how it was crewed, how it sailed, what it carried from and to India. We know more about Roman villas in Portugal, 2000 years old, than we know about Portuguese ships from 500 years ago.
To add salt to the injury, the Lisbon earthquake sent the House of India into the Tagus river - so, our archives sources are very few and very scarce... that's why this Namibian ship, not being salvaged by treasure hunters like all those others plundered and blown into smithereens in Mozambique, South Africa and Seychelles, rises like a bean of light (we archaeologist do have a tender spot for ship timbers...)
Quote from: Adriaan Van Rooyen on May 08, 2008, 08:16:24 PM
Hi Alexandre,i was privvy to see some new photo's today,and it seems that most of the articles recovered are lying submerged in huge containers of water,i hope that will let you sleep better! cheerup
I do sleep well, I am pretty sure this wreck is in good hands! :)
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 08, 2008, 06:55:19 PM
On another point , thanks to Alexandre' on his explanations, fascinating stuff indeed. Another small question if you have time, what was the average crew for such a wreck as ours, and what was the average sailing time from Portugal to India?
Sorry, I forgot to answer the questions.
The number of people aboard a Portuguese East Indiaman varied according to the ship's tonnage and travel accidents. For instance, Jean Hugues van Linschotten wrote that, at the end of the 16th century, Portuguese naus carried somewhere between 400 and 500 sailors and passengers but, in 1643, a galleon carried 930 persons and in 1724, a ship carried 700 people, of which 400 were convicts sent to India. Sometimes, during shipwreck recoveries, a ship would be carrying more than a thousand souls...
If all went well, it could take as much as six months to reach India. If, for some reason, they were delayed by the doldrums or they failed to catch the monsoon, it could take as much as a year to arrive there, with a stop made somewhere along the route, Mozambique for instance.
Quote from: Adriaan Van Rooyen on May 08, 2008, 08:16:24 PM
Hi Alexandre,i was privvy to see some new photo's today,and it seems that most of the articles recovered are lying submerged in huge containers of water,i hope that will let you sleep better! cheerup
I could kill for new photographs... ;)
As said .. intrepid explorers and adventurers .. so many people aboard a ship ?? fascinating stuff . keep it coming ..
We should actually invite Alexandre to our reunion in November (then he can kill Adriaan, who will be my host, for bragging about those pictures he saw and not posting even 1 here for us). LOL
This stuff is so interesting - makes me silently wish that some more treasures like this will get discovered along the Namibian coastline. So much of our history is still a mystery to us and these findings just shed a little more light on the roots of our past.
Carry on, boys.... I am all ears and eyes!
I thought mike was talking about something I didnt know about. Were are they storing the stuff my guess is the vault at 2 plant recovery! Cant anyone load a couple more photos for us to have a look at?
Greetings to all Oranjemunders and other Shipwreck fans!
With Alexandre supplying us all with such interesting information there is not much I can add - only that I am happy the site is covered up, the artifacts seems to be in fresh water and the world is listening, watching and waiting. Now only to hope that 'they' are all now planning an international, multi-disciplinary project which would do justice to this great find. Maritime Archaeology is a very specialized field with many facets and such a project needs lots of planning, involvement of many different experts from various scientific disciplines, museum involvement, money etc etc
Attached a photograph of a similar cannon as was found at your site- this is from the Girona (1588) website - thus probably with copy right! These cannon were mounted high and had a number of pre-laoded breach blocks ready (shown in the pic) and made it possible to shoot quite fast - this gave the Spanish and Portuguese a huge advatage at that time over their enemies.
(//)
Our local Music Man is also the local scribe, here is his entertaining piece about the wreck from todays Newsletter for all those of you who do not get the Newsletter......
To add to Alexandre's comments about the difficulty of preserving the timbers of the wreck: One of Henry VIII's ships, the Mary Rose was sunk in 1545. The wreck was found and brought to the surface in 1982 after 437 on the seabed. The remnants of the ships wooden hull has been receiving a constant spray of a waxy solution for the past 26 years.
Well, now I can spill my beans, since it's out in the street and the powers that be have come forward: yesterday, via the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa, a request for cooperation by the Namdeb archaeologists has reached the Portuguese Foreign Affairs Ministry and from there, the Portuguese Ministry of Culture.
So, it looks like one or two of our guys will be going your way one of these days... :)
http://dn.sapo.pt/2008/05/09/artes/portugal_pondera_enviar_missao_a_nam.html (http://dn.sapo.pt/2008/05/09/artes/portugal_pondera_enviar_missao_a_nam.html)
Won't be any chance that it will be you Alexandre'?
Don't know. I guess it will all depend on how much budget we can bargain for (we, as a country, don't have diamonds and all our gold was lost in shipwrecks ;).
But, if anyone is going at all (that is, if all the red tape is done with) then Francisco Alves, our Director for the National Division of Underwater and Nautical Archaeology will certainly be that one.
As most of you know , the wreck actually lies below sea level, and lies in a Coffer dam, the mine keeps the pumps running and pumps the sea water back over that wall, I wonder how long the mine will pay to keep those pumps running in order to keep the digsite dry? Anyone know something?
I keep thinking of what might have been when that ship smashed into the rocks, was there a storm? Was it in the night? Did any of them actually make it ashore? If those that made it ashore, know that even though they were looking at a bleak and desolate landscape, dry and barren, devoid of all water, that if they walked along the beach, south, just 12km...they would find the biggest freshwater river in Southern Africa, ..... did some of them make it there? How many? Did ever any of them ever return to Portugal? And how long will it take before the experts confirm, yes this ship was the "abcd", what was this story that there was royalty aboard? Did this boat first visit Brazil? If you look on some of the links in here, you will see, in order to catch the winds, a number of boats went across to South America first, then back to Africa....one has to admire their courage ....
Sigh! SO many Questions, So little answers, and I only have one life.....
pls
Not saying anything,hear no evil speak no evil ve vill get shot and shot again iv ve publish vone more voto me i love life, so Mikey go ahead, make my day.Hell Alexander tell those guys you have family here,tell them we are madmen bling1 ,we sure would like to meet you ,in person,or what do i say Mike, shut up Dalene,not a yap from you thumper. Mike wasn't it possible that a river exists in the vicinity of the wreck and that they actually wanted to get fresh water but ran into trouble.Any chance of going back a couple of hundred years to find out ? swink.
Just like that - "shut up"! Aint gonna happen... Adriaan, sorreeee (For sure we would like to meet Alexandre in person - his main purpose to do his job and then on assignment to wring your neck about those photos.)
Could be that the actual river mouth was not where it is today. One thing that I am glad of, is that I was not one of the people on the ship. To land on the westcoast of Namibia.....
Am I glad to see that the archeologists of Namdeb have realized that they are out of their "levels" with this project and have asked for help from the right people. I just wonder why they have only asked for it now?
hi dalene,river mouth could have been further north then as time waits for noone.
look geolists and other muthas did nothing anyway cept line their own pockets. so we find these things out for ourselves.
Nah,nobody is gonna wring my neck,lady, bling1.Alexandre would love to see this town,before it falls apart....just joking.Sorry about the photos,but i gather you love the thrills and spills. meanpuff.As for the river,i think that maybe it could have been running a wee bit north awhile back..... gnite Gonna watch the movie now...
It's a known fact amongst those in the know, that the Orange River mouth actually was positioned at Uubvlei, but this was not 500 years back, but rather thousands of years back....
and on whose authority due you get this information,caseys' sportsmans,or where, maybe even koos.
Strangely enough I saw that comment when reading today but was busy .. Come on BMIB the shipwreck is in such common knowledge not some state secret ... maybe their misplaced comment should also highlighted in the media ?? The wreck may " belong" to namibia but it is of worldwide historical interest ../? the mind boggles at the foot in mouth illness suffered by many politicians ....actually got a good one on them .. will paste it in ..
People never lie so much
as
After a Hunt ,
During a War
or
Before an Election .
... Otto von Bismarck ...
No Chris,he is becoming a historian now.... swink you know what i say.. bling1
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 10, 2008, 06:16:29 AM
Did ever any of them ever return to Portugal? And how long will it take before the experts confirm, yes this ship was the "abcd", what was this story that there was royalty aboard?
Np royalty, but there were on board, without doubt, some people of lesser nobility extraction. I spent all day, today, at the archives - I think we can hold the ship "Bom Jesus", captained by Dom Francisco de Noronha, and lost with all hands in 1533, as a good suspect for your mistery wreck...
Way to GO Alexandre' ..... a name out of the mists....... This is getting interesting, do the Archives give the names of the crew? How many etc.....?
Survivors from such an early wreck did not have much chance of survival. They probably knew that they did not have much of a chance to get a lift back to Portugal if they walked south - and that their only chance would be going north hoping to make contact with Portuguese west african traders. But this was so early and I do not think the Portuguese were active in Angola in the mid 1500's - Alexandre? . Thus, if they did not know about the river and went south they would have walked north, right into disaster.
Again we have no idea if anybody surviced and how many. We know from South African Portuguese shipwrecks that up to 450 people survived such a wreck. With the loss of the Sao Joao in 1552 (Port Edward - KwaZulu Natal), 450 people started walking north to Mozambique - again their only hope of contact with traders - of the 450 only approx 28 arrived in Southern Mozambique - the rest were 'lost' along the way due to starvation, fights with locals, illness and some even chose to/had to remain behind, being taken up in local tribes.
A study of shipwreck survivor camps is another very interesting part of Archaeology - often survivors remained behind for a few days up to a few months before moving on. In South Africa we have the documented case of the Sao Goncalo survivors who stayed in Plettenberg Bay for 9 months before departing again in boats built during their stay. Fascinating stuff. This survivor camp has been found and excavated many years ago. If anybody is interested - let me know - In South Africa we have at least 12 early Portuguese shipwrecks that we have been studying for many years - many of the wreck sites are known but still needs to be properly researched/excavated - unfortunately most of the wreck sites are in very rough seas and difficult to work in areas - we need some of the 'diamond millions' so our Archaeologists can explore these sites better.
With the ORM wreck - many possibilities - lets hope a proper archaeological excavation will be able to tell us more about the ship and its people. Archaeologists with modern technology can do wonders with small pieces of wood, ballast stones, pollen found on the wreck, and as Filipe Castro from INA wrote te me - even the mud in the ballast space can keep the modern archaeologist happy for many months unraveling the story behind the story.
Cheers PAUL maritimeafrica@yahoo.co.uk
Can anyone confirm that the wreck site has once again been flooded with seawater? Anyone on the mine email me..thnx?
@ Paul Thanks for the history....was'nt that Plettenberg wreck, the Formosa? I remember hearing about that when I was their on holiday, a bar was called the Formosa Inn, and on enquiring about the origin of the name, I heard the story.... fact?
Fascinating stuff ... keep it coming !!
We have confirmation, that yes, the wreck site is now being flooded.... in a controlled manner..... the good Dr.Nolie was present taking the last photographs.... I wonder where to next......
The Plettenberg Bay wreck was called the Sao Goncalo and was wrecked in 1630 in the Bay. She was anchored there for some time because of bad leaking and then a storm came up and she was wrecked. The Portuguese at some time called the bay - Bahia Formosa.
Attached a pic of the first page of an article on the ship and survivor site that was found. Paul
I just heard that Dr.Nolie will be doing a presentation, in the school audiotorium on wednesday the 14th May at 19h00. All about the wreck. Unfortunately, I already have other plans and will not be able to attend.... can somebody take a camera with and take photo's pplease.... contact me if you can.,... thanks
Mike
ATT: SMITTIE of the Observer, that arial photo that was published on this weekend 's Observer, is not the wreck...
Does he really think that a wreck of about 500 years old will look that good... :bling1Man: someone got their facts mixed op pretty good .... arse laughpoint
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 13, 2008, 05:31:54 AM
Way to GO Alexandre' ..... a name out of the mists....... This is getting interesting, do the Archives give the names of the crew? How many etc.....?
Thye might, although this would need a major investment (in time) digging through all that paper trail.. let's wait for a more closely defined date for the loss (we will need to go thorugh each coin and find the latest one) before I loose 6 months in a musty and dusty room... :)
Quote from: pbrandt on May 13, 2008, 07:12:41 AM
Survivors from such an early wreck did not have much chance of survival. They probably knew that they did not have much of a chance to get a lift back to Portugal if they walked south - and that their only chance would be going north hoping to make contact with Portuguese west african traders. But this was so early and I do not think the Portuguese were active in Angola in the mid 1500's - Alexandre? . Thus, if they did not know about the river and went south they would have walked north, right into disaster.
Well, Paul, the first travels to the N'gola kingdom were done by Baltasar de Castro and Manuel Pacheco, in 1520, on orders by King Manuel I - it appears he thought that there were silver mines in the hinterland, after he received two silver bracelets as a gift from the King of Congo... anyhow, it wasn't until the 1570's that the place was populated by Portuguese.
All this waiting........ I know why I will never fit in a job where months or even years may go by before I have an answer : I am a bloody impatient WOMAN!
Why did I ever start reading this topic? I have the same problem when I read an interesting book - can't put the book down till the final . on the last page! Sometimes read straight through the night - never sleep, eyes sore, head fuzzy, ....
Another question - why are they flooding the site where the wreck is? Is the sea water not bad for the conservation of the wreck? Throughout all Paul's & Alexandre's posts I have read - and have also seen on Discovery Channel - that artifacts has to be put in fresh water.....
Quote from: Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee) on May 14, 2008, 11:52:58 AM
Another question - why are they flooding the site where the wreck is? Is the sea water not bad for the conservation of the wreck? Throughout all Paul's & Alexandre's posts I have read - and have also seen on Discovery Channel - that artifacts has to be put in fresh water.....
As a matter of fact, its is the water and the SALT contents that do matter in this issue. Adding fresh water might prevent dessication, crinkling and the overall turn-the artfect-into-dust processes but can have a darker side to it - the sudden and abnormal salt transfer from inside the artefact matriz: this can also ruin the artfact. So, generally, one say that the best place to leave an artefact from a wreck is in the exact place and condition that it was - after all, if after 400 years an equilibrium was reached, then excavating it and removing it will expedite it's degradation process.
People, I need your help in locating the following places in the coast line of Namibia (between Luderitz and maybe SA?):
Elizabeth Bay (golfo de Santo Estêvão)
Prince of Wales Bay/Jammer Butch Bay (Terra de São Silvestre)
Elizabeth Bay is South of Luderitz here are the co-ordinates 26°54'40.29"S 15°12'28.46"E , Namdeb do minig there now here is a photo.
Prince of wales bay could be Walvis Baain here are the co-ordinates 22°56'46.45"S 14°30'8.08"E and a photo.
Just been informed that the proposed presentation, tonight in the School Audiotorium has been cancelled. I have yet to hear why.
Quote from: Jeremy Dixon on May 14, 2008, 01:37:42 PM
Elizabeth Bay is South of Luderitz here are the co-ordinates 26°54'40.29"S 15°12'28.46"E , Namdeb do minig there now here is a photo.
Prince of wales bay could be Walvis Baain here are the co-ordinates 22°56'46.45"S 14°30'8.08"E and a photo.
Is Walvis Baain near the mouth of a river...? It has to have a river.
The Swakop river is +- 30km North of walvisbaai but I dont think it is perennial
Just my 10cents worth, I'm no boffin on this stuff but I do know that Walvs Bay was known as The Prince of Wales Bay.
Prince of Wales Bay/Jammer Butch Bay was the name given by the British/Dutch to Terra de São Silvestre - a place, near the mouth of a river, first surveyed in the 15th century by the Portuguese. It was located somewhere between Elizabeth bay and the Olyphant river (in South Africa). I am suspecting it could be Oranjemund... or not?
Clanwilliam dam is on the Oliphants river or am I wrong
Yes clanwilliam dam is on the Olifants river Olifants river mouth 31°41'38.86"S 18°11'38.60"E here is a photo of the distance between Elizabeth Bay and the Olifants river mouth
There is only one Perrenial river on the Southern West coast of Africa, and that betweenis the Oliphants right down in the Cape Province, about 400km south of the Orange River, Jeremy Clanwilliam is on the river, is on the river and exits at Papendorp, and the Kunene on the Angolan Border, 200km north of the Orange river....so basically we are in the middle and could quite well have been a stopping point for refreshment, perhaps the small bay at Alexander Bay could have provided shelter.....
Mike you could be right! It does sound like a good possibility
My guess - could only be the Orangeriver. Thinking about current location of the river mouth (and I don't think 500 years would have made such a vast difference in location) - not a very rocky part of the coast and it does make that sort of bay at Alexander Bay. Furthermore - could the current Alexander Bay not have been the Prince of Whale bay. We should go see why it is called Alexander Bay and from what date, then maybe we will find the connection.
Named after a Captain Alexander, a british sea captain , circa late 1800's, surveying the coast for the British Cape Colony of the time, bearing in mind the copper river barges that brought copper down the Orange river back then....
I heard a story that the orange river mouth used to be the largest river mouth in the world long befor our time I heard it waw wider than the amazon river mouth!
What I heard, was that it's original mouth, was 16 times what it is today..... it is also a know fact that only one seventh of the Orange actually flows above the surface of the ground...interestings stuff...
Jammerbucht ("Misery bay") is the bay immediately west of Pomona. Many people these days refer to it as Pomona bay. Silver was mined in this area for some time before diamonds were discovered.
Pete, I never knew that... is there still silver there? Any mine still there? What year was this? Do you have any pics? Are you allowed to post them?
What other minerals were mined in the area?
I do not know why, but I believe that the water has once again been pumped out of the coffin dam..... the wreck is now dry again...... I wonder if the dig will start again....
Do you happen to know if any timbers were removed in the first place?
I'm afraid that i do not know....will ask around though....
Mike ~
With regards your interest in silver mining at Pomona, Olga Levinson in her book, Diamonds In The Desert, records that De Pass, Spence and Co. mined silver and lead in the Pomona area from 1861 to 1863. They had no idea whatsoever that they were in the very close proximity of one of the greatest diamond deposits ever to be discovered. At the time there was quite a bit of economic activity in the general area as guano collecting on the nearby offshore islands was at its peak.
There is little to see of what remains of the silver mine today and, unless you know what you're looking at, one would probably not recognise it for what it was.
Thanks for that Pete, it rings a bell now.... ever read the book, the "Glamour of prospecting".... also about a prospector who walked all over the diamond fields looking for copper, not realising that he was walking over the worlds richest diamond deposit.... the book is available at The Springbok Cafe, ...I've bought two so far, (Not to read twice...), BUT KEEP LENDING THEM OUT ...and never getting them back...must buy two more sometime......
when you buy tell me, love to borrow a copy.
Gee! It's a good thing I planned to buy two copies....
As per the posting in shipwreck relevant "and I believe for some strange reason, Not the COmpany (Namdeb), but rather the government does not want anyone giving out photo's or discussing this newsworthy topic.... I cannot see what the reason for this would be. Please feel free to air your views in the Shipwreck TOpic."
Well.... I just saw myself quoted on the Windhoek Observer but I was not contacted by them. I guessed they must have come to this forum and kind of copy/pasted me...
Worst of all, they did not bother to correct my pidgin english... all the misspels and repeated words - I do not go back to see what have I wrote on a forum - are there... :36_2_35:
@ Alexandre
Thats what they do if no info comes out.........
You can write anything there and they will copy it
Some papers at least contacted us per mail trying to find out what is fact and what is joke
Take Care
Obrigado Alexendre para sua entrada em nosso forum
Georg de Germany
It's quite impressive how many newspapers are lurking around in here.... I got an email from a Portuguese Reporter today..... Nothing that I can really say I guess..... I ain't digging for ships...... They should speak to Nolie.... if he is allowed to speak that is...... It still bothers me..that the Presentation that was to be held on Wednesday Night got cancelled...... perhaps bigger men in black are lurking about.....
Mike A - when Mike S returns the copy of the book 'Glamour of Prospecting' that you are going to lend him - can I have a loan of it then, please...............Mike S - please don't dog ear the book or damage it's spine; I'll send you a book mark before you start reading........ cheers
I just had the honour to eventually have a chat with Dr. Dieter Nolie. What a humble man and indeed
a true servant of Namibian Archaeology.This passionate man has spent the last twenty two years of
his life exploring all possible historical sites of the Spergebiedt. I listened to all he had to
tell me and understand fully his reasons for restraints on what information is to be released on
the wreck.
He gave a really good explanation to me as to why the wreck needs to be covered over again. In a
nutshell , preservation until the technology is available. This is a man who believes, and quite
rightly so, that this wreck belongs to the Nation and people of Namibia.
We look forward to the day that he will be able to give a presentation to us all on this incredible
find.
numberone :emot112_2:
Balanced rational information .. all we need ..and got it in a nutshell ... we await the final reports when all important work done ..
From the leading Portuguese newspaper, yesterday.
"Shipwreck study: Portugal will cooperate with Namibia
Publico, Saturday, 17th May 2008, by Sérgio C. Andrade
The Portuguese Government, through it's Institute for the Management of Architectural and Archaeological Heritage (IGESPAR), communicated yesterday to the team of the South African archaeologist Dieter Noli their willingness to cooperate in the research of the remains of a [shipwrecked] nau, thought to date from the Discovery period, found in the Namibian sea, on the 1st of April.
The way this cooperation will unfold is still to be seen, but it should occur by the sending of a technical [Portuguese] team to Namibia, whose Government has already assumed the impetus of the research, and which has formally contacted both the Portuguese and the Spanish Governments.
The shipwreck appears to contain more than 2.000 coins (some in gold, already identified as Portuguese and Spanish, from the 15th and 16th centuries) besides cannons, other bronze artifacts, navigational tools and even elephant tusks, all this reinforcing the theory that this was "a Portuguese East Indiaman sunk carvel", has said again Francisco Alves, head of the Nautical and Underwater Archaeology Division of IGESPAR. "The research that will be done on this shipwreck can be of an utmost historical importance", said Francisco Alves, highlighting the fact that this must be the oldest ship ever to found in the South Atlantic."
Thanks Alexandre'...quick question...Were the Portuguese and Spanish nations of that period allies...why were both Nation's coins in use on the same boat?
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 18, 2008, 12:46:58 PM
Thanks Alexandre'...quick question...Were the Portuguese and Spanish nations of that period allies...why were both Nation's coins in use on the same boat?
Hi Michael, quick answer. There were two ways for that to happen:
1) gold is gold. with an economy based on gold and silver, it does not matter whose face and shield is it on the coin - all that matters is the gold content in it (the higher the better, that's why the Portuguese coins were so famous) and the sheer weight of it. it's like today's euro coins -here in Portugal we give and receive euro coins from anywhere in Europe, France, Spain, Finland - since they are all current, they get around. Also remember - if this ship was lost after 1525, it was at a time that we were hardly getting any African gold, since the caravans were already being re-routed norteast from Nigeria and Congo. Now, on the opposite side, Europe was getting flooded by gold from the Americas and guess who was bringing it? The Spanish...
2) the Portuguese King would financially support part of the India bound fleet costs by granting private merchants a license to deal/buy pepper or other exotic goods -this was the "partidas" system. These privates would then go to their assigned ship, with that letter in hand, and would deliver it to the ship's purveyors together with the amount of money that that private merchant was sending to buy pepper. In India, the purveyor would use those coins to buy the pepper - now the beauty of this was that not only the King would get a fair profit from the difference in prices (usually pepper "bought" in Lisbon in antecipation would be more expensive than the one actually bought in India) but he would tax the royal fifth from that very pepper (if it ever arrived in Lisbon). Anyhow, anyone could have delivered those Spanish coins as part of a "Partida".
No more news on the wreck?
Mike - lend your ears to the annonomous informants so we can get fresh info on the topic, please!
@Alexandre' ... thanks for that...once again most interesting stuff....
@Dalene, this subject has gone very cold at the moment, I believe everyone is waiting tor the Portuguese delegation to arrive, no doubt the politicians here in namibia will make a big spectacle of the whole event.....
I know that there are a group of Portuguese journalists planning a trip out here also..one of them contacted me, but I passed there email onto the local Portuguese people living here.... can't get to grips with the language,,,,,,
Don´t those journalists speak english? ;)
I am annexing a 1591 chart of your coast, can you identify the actual geography? It might help pinpoint that wreck.
From what I can make out these charts are just to far south - they are south of the Orange river mouth (I don't read or speak Portugese.... ) and the wreck is on a location just north of the Orange river.
Alexandre - if I'm wrong - could you pinpoint the location of the Orange river mouth on one of those charts for us please.
The only name I can pick up that is still around today, is Cape Voltas, south of Alexander bay...marked in red...fascinating stuff, myself and wessle smit were just discussing these old type of maps yesterday...he knew of a wreck that was found inlAND IN the Kaokaveld... but not near the sea...seems the see used to be inland at one stage...
This looks like the coast between Cape Town / Saldana bay
Alfred
@ Alexandre
I tried here. This is presuming the blue is the Oranje. Lets see what Mike says ????
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/wreck.jpg)
There is obviously no scale to these maps, but marked in green is more than likely Cape Fria on the Skelenton coast...and I see the name Pequena between the two....bearing in mind that Luderitz was originally called Angra Pequena before Adolf and the boys turned up..... so i would say That Omund would be between Pequena and Fria...however they do not have a mighty river marked there, but then we all know that the river dams up with a large sandbar and perhaps the portuguese who drew this map did not see it, for the river mouth was closed up?
just my 2 cents.....
That looks spot on Georg
We seem pretty close Mike and me
Quote from: Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee) on May 21, 2008, 08:02:37 PM
From what I can make out these charts are just to far south - they are south of the Orange river mouth (I don't read or speak Portugese.... ) and the wreck is on a location just north of the Orange river.
Alexandre - if I'm wrong - could you pinpoint the location of the Orange river mouth on one of those charts for us please.
Actually,it's from Cabo Negro http://www.satelliteviews.net/cgi-bin/w.cgi?c=ao&UF=-2868915&UN=-4015079&DG=CAPE (http://www.satelliteviews.net/cgi-bin/w.cgi?c=ao&UF=-2868915&UN=-4015079&DG=CAPE) (Namibe, Angola) to Cape Town...
That is my question: where is the River Orange? I am not acquainted with the local topography, that's why is fascinating for me to follow the pros on this thread.. :)
what is the double line on this pic
Ok..lets put some portuguese into English..Alexandre' if you could, what would the nearest description be in English for these three names.....
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 21, 2008, 08:14:01 PM
however they do not have a mighty river marked there, but then we all know that the river dams up with a large sandbar and perhaps the portuguese who drew this map did not see it, for the river mouth was closed up?
just my 2 cents.....
I might say you're spot on. For instance, on this 1700 chart, there's only the Olyphant river marked, no other river up north as far as Angola.
@ Alexandre
Map 215 goes only up to Namaqualand, that is still below the Orange River and is part of the cape province
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 21, 2008, 08:30:49 PM
Ok..lets put some portuguese into English..Alexandre' if you could, what would the nearest description be in English for these three names.....
1) Islet Point
2) The Elevations (small mountain chain?)
3) Low lands (or Site of the shallows?)
The maps only from False Bay in cAPE tOWN to Namibie in ANgola...what causes mass confusion here is the scale... How far inlAnd would these guys have adventured? Because on that map...only the Orange river would dissect the mountains in the hinterland.... the olifants runs parallel to the Cedarberg in the south and the kunene does intersect the Hartmansberge in the north and then shoots north into Angola ..I am therefore happy to state that according to the old names on the 1500 chart that Oranjemund lies just north of Cape Voltas, thats the big bay just south of Alexander bay with the Boegoeberg above it, that side slopped Table mountain type hill you can see form the beach from oranjemund.... So I satnd with the mark I have given, also just north of prequen is a name that looks like COnception... that is also the current day COnception Bay.... that marking Angra prequena as Luderitz..... just my 2 cents...but heck I love geography....
Ok, I have drawn a skew map of where I thing the borders of Namibia is on this chart and then named a few spots that I think may be right - thanks for the direction Georgswa & Alexandre & Mike.
Shoot away...!
Name no 3..... would not be marking the land, but those lowlands , mudflats behind Luderitz to the SOuth, thus adding more weight to the positioning of Luderitz.... Anyone else agree?
Quote from: georgswa on May 21, 2008, 08:37:53 PM
@ Alexandre
Map 215 goes only up to Namaqualand, that is still below the Orange River and is part of the cape province
Sorry... what do you mean by Map 215? I am getting lost here...
Here is my positioning of Oranjemund, the sailors missed the river coz it was blocked by the sandbar.... the river south of Voltas is the Holgat River.... which has been known to flood...see the other thread in here on the Holgat flood....
I rest my case....
@ Alexexandre
Scroll down to your map, there is a number written 215
@ Dalane
I think your map is not right, Your walvis is to me Lüderitz, see the proportion from CA to Oranje and compare that
Thats an exciting discussion here
Darn and dammit - my geography is letting me down - got to ask back my school fees!
You right Georgswa - the northern border I have drawn should have been more north. Gonna take a good look at this over the weekend & try to paste a more modern map next to this one & then make comparisons -
maybe you could do that Georgswa - seeing you are retired & I still have to work for a living - you might have a little more time on your hands! LOL
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 21, 2008, 08:14:01 PM
There is obviously no scale to these maps
0.86 cm of the map is equal to those degrees of latitude marked at the left, they are roughly 111 kilometers or 69 miles...
Thanks for that Alexandre - that will make a comparisson to a recent scaled map much easier.
That statement by mike makes more sense taking latidude of O-mund at about 27 ° South
Forget my location , that is wrong
Sorry Dalene, yours is closer to the actual .....
Quote from: georgswa on May 21, 2008, 08:56:34 PM
@ Alexexandre
Scroll down to your map, there is a number written 215
You're right, it's too far south.
Are there any islets off the coast? I am betting that the coast was pretty much surveyed and the Ylheos Secos are a couple (or more) of Islets that are never covered by the tide or waves, projecting off the coastline.
Ag zu liebe - now I got to give back the school fees again! LOL - Still - the northern border is not right, so...
This is facinating - (I got a massive presentation tomorrow and this topic is going to make my mind drift away from what I have to do) - but what is more amazing is how those old sea travvelers & explorers could make these maps & jot down locations and distances with the limited apparatus they had then. They must have been geniusses!
Yes, there are a whole host of islands or rocky outcrops scattered down the coast, but mainly between Luderitz and halfway down to Omund, say at Bakers Bay......
The isles of Dead NEd!
Revised Map using the latitudes from the old portugese map
I just looked at the revised map again
The red dot is the ship. I see on the Map a river, must be what Alexandre is been talking about
@ Alexandre, correct ????
Regards Georg
all the time fascinating reading .. those old maps .. as Dalene said .. basic eqpt and they charted their way fearlessly forward ... and of course more fascinating our resident on site cartographers putting clues together ... I remain riveted..
in all the time i was growing up every time i saw a map of africa i would look for O/M....it was never there....so had presumed for years it no longer existed :gum1:
Quote from: georgswa on May 22, 2008, 04:20:45 PM
I just looked at the revised map again
The red dot is the ship. I see on the Map a river, must be what Alexandre is been talking about
@ Alexandre, correct ????
Regards Georg
Well, it might be... I am still looking for the earliest representation of the Oranje river.. I have one that dates from the 19th century (no clear date on it, but it must be from 1884 onwards).
Anyhow, as you can see here, Orannjemund is a bit to the north of C. Voltas.
This one from 1812...
A later one, no clues on this one.
Oranjemund always reminds me of the Village in Asterix and Obelix, where in a distant corner of the land, one small village still holds out......
@ Mike
Asterix and Obelix were there long before the Germans and they dropped a Menhir there
Those days the place was very green
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z249/georgswa/IMGA0010-red-kbred.jpg)
Quote from: Alexandre on May 23, 2008, 04:03:28 AM
Anyhow, as you can see here, Orannjemund is a bit to the north of C. Voltas.
On this map here Mc Dougalls Bay is named, where we know Alexander Bay to be. Mc Dougalls Bay is a friction south of Port Nolloth.
Oranjemund is just north of the Orange river - therefore the name of the town - meaning Mouth of the Orange river.
On this map you can more accuratley pinpoint the location of the wreck for us, Mike.
Georgswa - please get me pic of the statue of Dogmatix as well!
@ Dalene
Dont know Dogmatix, do you mean Idefix ? The little dog of Asterix and Obelix ?
By the way, the menhir is in my hometown
Here the video
http://www.livevideo.com/video/AA91B4B9258E40DE8DBCEC8181235188/gollenstein-blieskastel.aspx?lastvcid=634296
Lets talk about that in another Topic if you want
In the Sunday times .. an article on the shipwreck and how Nam gov is clamming up " while negotiations taking place "
Is that today Sandy?
@ Georg, thanks for that, I collect Asterix and Obelix Books..... have about 80% of them so far....
Also from the sunday times some weeks ago
subarqaz said at May 4 2008 5:19PM
Well, here's another theory from this Portuguese underwater archaeologist:
If that gold coin is indeed from that wreck (and a highly hypothetical contamination from another hypothetical wreck in the vicinity can be discarded) them the "terminus post quem" date for the loss of this ship would be October 1525 - it could not have wrecked earlier than this.
It is my educated opinion, based on whatever photographs and information have leaked out, that site this definitely has the signature of a Portuguese ship, taking into account the geography and the guessed time period (first half of the 16th century?)- the treaties of Alcacovas (1479) and Tordesilhas (1494) as well as the Papal bules of Inter Caetera I, Eximia Devotiones, Inter Caetera II and Dudum Siquidem (1493) are all in favour of this hypothesis.
That gold coin (a "Portuguese", a 10 cruzados coin, heavier and purer in gold than anything else before, struck after 1495 only by two kings, Manuel I and João III, based on the recently gain of access to the subsaharian gold routes) was the favourite means of payment for the Indian pepper.
The copper and tin ingots were there for the same reason: imported into Portugal free of tax by the Holy Roman Empire bankers, such as the Fuggers and the Welsers, they were also used to buy pepper. Remember that, unlike the Spanish that conquered and populated Central and South America, the Portuguese only fought now and then and always to conquer a foothold into the Asian markets – they went there, all right, but they still had to buy the stuff, it was not theirs for the taking.
So, this must have been a ship going to India to trade there, not a returning ship.
From the Portuguese side, I am very happy that these artifacts belong now to the Namibian people - as part of Humanity's cultural heritage, I am pretty certain these remains will be studied in depth. After all, despite all our maritime tradition, there's not a single Portuguese ship from this period that has been archaeologicaly studied. I sure hope the archaeologists involved, De Beers and the Nabimian Cultural Authorities can be the first ones the shed some light on this matter.
Quote from: Michael Alexander on May 25, 2008, 09:33:46 AM
Is that today Sandy?
@ Georg, thanks for that, I collect Asterix and Obelix Books..... have about 80% of them so far....
I had a dream last night about a new issue, cant tell you what it was called LOL
Since i visited my hometown with the menhir, that goes through my mind......
Quote from: SandyB on May 25, 2008, 09:30:10 AM
In the Sunday times .. an article on the shipwreck and how Nam gov is clamming up " while negotiations taking place "
Here's the full article:
"Sunday Times of Johannesburg, 25 May 2008, By BOBBY JORDAN
Namibia clams up over 'delicate' treasure ship talks
The Namibian government has gagged senior mining and minerals personnel, banning them from talking about a shipwreck discovered in a restricted diamond mining zone.
Namibia and Portugal have held diplomatic talks over excavating the 16th century ship, believed to be Portuguese in origin, and considered to be the most significant maritime archaeological find in Southern Africa.
Portuguese Consul-General in South Africa, Dr Domingos Alvim, on Friday confirmed toplevel contact with the Namibian government to facilitate the speedy excavation of the shipwreck site in the Sperrgebiet, south of Luderitz. The Portuguese are eager to assist in the excavation to ensure the best possible recovery of historically valuable items, he said.
Two of the artefacts are believed to be valuable navigational tools called nautical astrolabes, of which there are only about 30 left in the world.
The wreck, about 25m long, was unearthed two months ago by Namdeb, a mining company jointly owned by De Beers and the Namibian government. Namdeb spokesman Ndeshi Hangula-Shikwambi said: "Namdeb is no longer allowed to do any communications. They (government) want to take charge."
There has been no shortage of speculation, however, with some experts saying the ship may have been part of a fleet commanded by Bartholomew Diaz, the first European to discover the Cape of Good Hope.
Subsequent reports suggest some gold coins found on the wreck were minted after 1525 and that the ship was more likely a Portuguese trading vessel on its way back from a colonial outpost on Africa's east coast.
George Shinyala, Namibian Mines and Energy spokesman, said: "The government has sent a team of experts to look at the shipwreck — a collaboration with our National Heritage Council. We are waiting for (their) report . . . Currently we don't have anything to tell."
Meanwhile, researchers all over the world are eagerly awaiting news. Senior curator at the world famous Maritime Museum in Lisbon, Bruno Goncalves Neves, said the wreck was of enormous significance, hence the delicate negotiations currently on the go. He said the museum would be delighted to receive any relics from the ship."
A few notes:
1) It does not make sense to have a ship coming in from Africa's East coast (Mozambique?), carrying all the gold onboard. This is a nau to India, going in, not coming from.
2) there are at least 88 marine astrolabes in the world, if I have my tally right, not counting with these two. If the date of the loss of this ship is right, this would then make these the oldest astrolabes to be recovered in the world (I think the oldest ones date to the 1550, from the Padre Island shipwrecks)
Thanks Alexandre
I think we have contributed a lot to those newspapers reports in our board
I see very often strange IPs reading in the board
We just have to wait and see..... meanpuff
Quote from: georgswa on May 26, 2008, 08:04:32 AM
Thanks Alexandre
I think we have contributed a lot to those newspapers reports in our board
Well, the more fiction and lore we can dissipate, the better. Archaeology is about people, the ones from the past, that have produced the archaeological record and the ones from the present, that are curious about their ancestors and that should share whatever knowledge we gain from studying the past.
The problem is that, if everything is done in a scientific way, we will only be getting the majority of all those answers in several years time.
I can just see the Ego's of some uneducated politicians screwing this up.....
Another article i found
http://www.unterwasser.de/newsarchiv/Newsdetail/d3ddd9e4-1331-430e-9310-bfb0831a69cd/?firstDateDet=01.05.2008%2000:00:00&lastDateDet=26.05.2008%2000:00:00
Quote from: georgswa on May 23, 2008, 02:09:02 PM
Dont know Dogmatix, do you mean Idefix ? The little dog of Asterix and Obelix ?
Well, if you have a menhir and Asterix, I have some Roman stuff for you....
Thanks Alexandre
Interesting underwater items
@ Georgswa - yes, Idefix. It has been so long that we have "re-named" him "Dogmatix" between a few of us, that I sort of accept that everyone else is also in on it - (kind of like those private jokes you share between friends or in the family where everyone else is left in the dark when you say something totally out of the ordinary).
@ Alexandre - thank you so much for assisting my grandmother in finding her stuff again. As she is really old, she tends to forget where she left them. I will send you her postal address so you can return it to her. (LOL) Got some more pics you can share with us?
For sure - this is not a "boaring" topic !!
Quote from: Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee) on May 27, 2008, 04:06:46 PM
Got some more pics you can share with us?
For sure - this is not a "boaring" topic !!
Sure do... first some pics of me, so you can get to know my face :D
1) me with a 19th century bronze fastener:
2) me again, fanning sand away from a 16th century wreck;
3) me, in the Arade river, untying the end of an underwater dredge;
4) several pics of the Arade 2007 survey;
Artifacts, now...
1) gold item from an unknown shipwreck
2) part of a Ming Wan Li dish, c. 1614
3) part of a wooden rosary
4) recovering mercury from a late 16th century Iberian galleon
All of these now, from that late 16th century Iberian galleon:
1) a thimble
2) wooden combs to get your hair rid of lice
3) bottom of a small Ming porcelain cup
4) main mast step assembly. to the right, the boiler of the Run'Her, a southern blockade runner from the American Civil War, shipwrecked in 1864
Still the same galleon, prior to main escavation effort, after the removal of the sand overburden and the ballast pile:
1) outboard planking and frames. one can see the lead sheathing protuding from underneath.
2) the galleon's sternpost, showing one gudgeon (where one of the rudder's pintle would be inserted)
Some iconography:
3) a 16th century Portuguese shipwreck
4) Portuguese ships from the probable time of the one you have there (1538-1540) drawn by D. João de Castro during his trips to India and the Red Sea.
Thanks, Alexandre! More, more, more please?!
How do you guys go about finding these wrecks? Give us a little more info on this i.e.: do you first study the history of a ship lost & then try to locate the wreck according to last known voyage, then set about finding actual site or do you sometimes just "happen" to come across a wreck when searching for something else & then study it? Average depths you dive, deepest dive you have made, mishaps etc etc - . Very interesting, all of this.
Whats happening with "our" wreck???? Hello MIB's
I just heard from a very reliable source that next week , the Ambassador from Spain, Portugal, France and a few EU types will be visiting the site of the wreck.....
Quote from: Michael Alexander on June 04, 2008, 09:56:30 AM
I just heard from a very reliable source that next week , the Ambassador from Spain, Portugal, France and a few EU types will be visiting the site of the wreck.....
Why they comming to see you for Mike?!
:emot19: :buffo9: vampire
No Paula, just the wreck of a house that you left behind....
:emot19:
What I heard was that the Ministry of Youth , SPort and Culture have placed a total ban on the site. They are waiting for a nation to claim the ship as theirs and then to send experts to the site. They want the wreck to stay where it is and a museum to be built onsite... the site is currently covered beneath sand and being kept dry by Namdeb, Thanks to them for that. I believe there is a guard 24/7 there also.
Alexandre'...prove the ship's name and origin, maybe they will ask you to come out here.....
There is no chance Namdeb are going to allow a bulding to be built in MA1 especially over bedrock. Also do you think security are going to like a tourist attraction on the mine!
Quote from: Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee) on June 02, 2008, 07:40:37 PM
Thanks, Alexandre! More, more, more please?!
How do you guys go about finding these wrecks? Give us a little more info on this i.e.: do you first study the history of a ship lost & then try to locate the wreck according to last known voyage, then set about finding actual site or do you sometimes just "happen" to come across a wreck when searching for something else & then study it? Average depths you dive, deepest dive you have made, mishaps etc etc - . Very interesting, all of this.
Sorry for the long time to reply, but I was away... now, back to business: there are two ways we find shipwrecks.
1) a diver spots cannons underwater or a fisherman drags some amphoras on his net (or a company empties the sea while looking for diamonds and discovers gold coins.. :)) - that's an easy one, you already have a shipwreck. But then the hard part comes: what shipwreck is it? Then you have to do some reverse engineering and go from the wreck to the documents (if you have them, of course)
2) you find a wreck quoted on paper - maybe a customs notice, I annex one from a 1651 Portuguese man o´war, maybe a captain's court martial (I found one for a shipwreck of an english frigate (HMS Pallas, 1782) as well as an artist impressions on board the ship, I annex 2 of those) I excavated in the Azores), or a royal court inquiry or a death certificate or a list of salvaged items. Then, you have to go from the papers to the actual site..
3) as for average depths, it is usually around 7 to 12 meters (95% of the ships actually wreck ashore not while at sea). The deepest I have done was 66 meters, on air, but I have done my share of underwater eyeballing at around 45-50 meters deep. No mishaps - only the odd octopus that steals your white underwater markers, being pinned to the sand while the passenger freighter passed overhead with 1 meter clearance between my soft skin and the propperler hard blades... common stuff, you know...
Quote from: Michael Alexander on June 10, 2008, 08:06:40 AM
Alexandre'...prove the ship's name and origin, maybe they will ask you to come out here.....
Michael, it's quite the other way around: ask me to come there and (maybe) I can prove the ship's name and origin. Unfortunately, on this day and a age, where people are having sex online and shopping virtually, one still cannot do online archaeology... :)
Here in Portugal it's a dead lock, also. I am guessing the Foreign Office is sitting on this one (the Spanish have taken one of our cities away from us in 1801 and, although the matter is still an issue of dispute between both Foreign Offices, they still speak Castillian over there) but I hope this week I can get some more information on it.
Alexandre' You once asked about the type of stones in the area, well I was scanning old mine photo's from about 1967...and came across this....looks similar don''t you think?
Hey Paula, did you leave the copper pipes behind.? bling1
hey boet, correct me if im wrong,hugo your boet? OOM frans ur dad boetie married to ronelle???
Quote from: Adriaan Van Rooyen on June 20, 2008, 08:03:39 PM
Hey Paula, did you leave the copper pipes behind.? bling1
Are you crazy or what, do you know what you get for copper pipes these days, I just left the asbestos roof.
That story was a laugh too, I built a braai area at that house and wanted to get old asbestos sheets from the company for the roof, they said we may not use asbestos due to the health/environment issue, but guess what is on every house in Oranjemund, Jip, asbestos roofs, go figer!
idontknow
paula why u stirring yhe bucket babes,
coz I got a big wooden spoon and I can!
:culo1: :emot19:
whatcht it darling ,ill get you faster than u can man united.
S.T.I.C.K. T.O. T.H.E. T.O.P.I.C
Was the wreck built with asbestos?
:sorriso2:
Chris, yes man Hugo is my YOUNGER boet and he is not working anymore,s....t, i dont recall him working anyway,he is now in the Strand.The old toppie and my mom is still going strong,and Francoise the poor sod is married to Ronelle laughpoint. 15_3_27
From todays Newsletter! The coins went where?
........and, POOF!..... 2000 golden coins...missing!
idontknow
Quote from: Michael Alexander on June 13, 2008, 12:49:55 PM
Alexandre' You once asked about the type of stones in the area, well I was scanning old mine photo's from about 1967...and came across this....looks similar don''t you think?
They do look similar... but those other rocks were more massive and more rounded, I think....
@Alexandre' no more news in the portuguese media about the wreck, does anyone on your side know whats happening with regard to the Spanish coming here?
Michael, wheels and cogs are moving behind the scenery - after all , the MIB are a transnational issue, if you get my drift. Fear not, we will have a solution for this issue sooner than later... :)
Mmmh! Like you said before..... the coins are not the real treasure here...... the MIB's don't see that though....
Quote from: Michael Alexander on June 23, 2008, 07:00:21 PM
the coins are not the real treasure here
"Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight!"
Long John Silver's parrot in Robert Louis Stevenson's "Treasure Island"
:)
Seems this treasure island is somewhere in Namibia then..... they are counting more that eight here (wonder if they even know what it stands for?) Anyways.... makes for a good conspiracy story. Maybe we should ask Rhona to weave some of this into her book in some way...
Good plan 99 - I'll see what I can do :emot26:
Like Mike said, the gold is not that important (besides those coins being a very good indicator for chronology) - gold is pretty much stable. What does worry me is the survival of the remains of the hull. If the hull survives and is recordable, then Namibia and Oranjemund will have a steady flow of good press and scientific knowledge coming their way. If not, well then, it's just another treasure find...
... you know, we would have known more about the state of the wreck, if Dr.Nolie had been allowed to give his presentation to the Oranjemund community..... , that was until he was gagged by the government....., what harm could it have done? If anything it would have prevented a lot of false statements being created....... all we know is that the wreck is now covered, under guard and being kept dry.......
Well, you don't want that wreck to get dry! You want it as moist as possible.
GOSH what have i missed.........what shipwreck.....someone email me and tell me about it or something...........dont know what its about but you do have to be careful with copyrights when your copying anything........theyve just taken all our music system out at work saying we were braking the law as they had no licence to broadcast the music.BBBOOOOOOo...................sorry im still a bit spasmodic on here at the moment......but too much ro read for me to write anything myself.....will i ever catch up image24.......feel like an outsider now ive missed sooooooo much :emot78:
Quote from: Michael Alexander on June 23, 2008, 06:54:13 PM
@Alexandre' no more news in the portuguese media about the wreck, does anyone on your side know whats happening with regard to the Spanish coming here?
Here's Portugal's position regarding the "sovereign immunity" of state and warships within the context of the UNESCO International Convention for the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage - the result of several meetings held between delegates from the National Center for Nautical and Underwater Archaeology (Portuguese Ministry of Culture), the Cabinet for International Cultural Projects (also Ministry of Culture), the Portuguese Navy's General Directory, the General Directory for Multilateral Agreements and the Services Directory for International Economical Organizations (Portuguese Foreign Office) and approved in April 2000:
1) Notwithstanding the fact that UNCLOS does not contain any specific mention regarding the sovereign immunity of shipwrecked warships and state owned ships Portugal considers that this consecrated principle – according to which the flag state has sovereign rights over the said remains, wherever they are located - should be universally respected. Also, Portugal - notwithstanding the fact that it will strongly respect other state's owned ships or warships, located at the bottom of the sea or in the sea bottom of it's continental shelf or, more generally, in any of the areas under it's maritime jurisdiction – will not claim this principle from other States at any title, although the vast majority of it's historical heritage is spread worldwide, in the sea bottom of every continent. As a matter of fact, Portugal does not consider this ethical, political and cultural principle as fundamental in the preservation of it's heritage; nor to be this the most important or the most urgent issue from the scientific, political or cultural point of view within the Convention's context. Portugal considers that best way to protect, study and preserve his nautical heritage, instead of claiming for himself his historic and cultural remains located at the bottom of the sea or in the sea bottom of any continental shelf – remains that are historically and culturally shared with the countries that control those areas and whose claim and affirmation are negotiated with any of those countries, based upon the principles and the ethics underlined in the project of this Convention – is :
a) to claim, above all, that those remains will be protected, researched, studied and valorized in the exclusive behalf of Science, Culture and Mankind (which is inherent to the primordial respect of the interests of the site, flag or cultural origin countries), in accordance with the Sofia Charter principles. By "site country" we mean the country that holds control or possession of the sea or marine bottoms where those remains are located; by "flag country" we mean the country whose nationality is historically and archaeologically identified and by "cultural origin country" we mean the country tentatively identified, being such identification based nevertheless on strong archaeological evidence
b)to reiterate it's entire availability to cooperate with any country in whose waters and sea bottoms lie remains of common historical and cultural heritage.
2) These are the principles that inspire Portugal's resolution to act in this domain and that explain it's position vis-à-vis the said Convention. Principles consubstantiated by the fact that the archaeology and the valorization of underwater cultural heritage have begun in Portugal with the cases of the Océan and the San Pedro de Alcantara, shipwrecked in the Portuguese territorial sea in 1759 and 1786; and that Portugal has always cooperated unselfishly when the remains of Portuguese ships were intervened with good and sound archaeological practices (that is, according to the principles that were later put forward by the Sofia Charter) in other countries territorial sea, as has happened in the case of the remains of the Santissimo Sacramento galleon (1666), in Brazil, or the case of the Santo de António de Tana (1697), in Kenya.
3) Portugal considers that, independently of the said questioning, the universality principle must inspire the application of the instrument that constitutes the present Convention, contemplating all underwater cultural heritage, whatever be it's nature (sites with nautical remains or others or, if these are ships, whatever its "class" may be – men of war, "civilian", etc.).by expressively stating only the ethical and methodological assumptions of contemporaneous archaeology (expressed in the Sofia Charter) and those requiring for a necessary and desirable cooperation between countries, leaving as a side issue – regulated by bi or multilateral cooperation agreements – all questions pertaining only to the authorities involved, such as the issue regarding "Sovereign Immunity" over men of war and State ships sunk and which might be considered to have hypothetical or confirmed archaeological potential."
Thanks for that Alexandre' , I woke up this morning realizing that I have not seen our resident Archaeologist , Dr. Dieter Nolie in quite awhile, he seems to have disappeared of the face of the Sperrgebiedt,None of my normal sources from the mine have anything new to report on the wreck, the government has given no further statements since April.....
I hope that this is not a case of , well we got the gold, bugger the rest!
image14
I still think we might have some good news coming down your way... :)
?? Well don't keep us in suspense please Alexandre....
<--------------- V E R Y N O S E Y! allgood
I just got a phonecall from Jim MurrAy in JHB, Dr.DIeter Nolie has surfaced on Radio 702 today... SO Jim thought he would phone in and tell them about his wreck form the 60's....
Did someone listen in to the story Jim was telling? Would like to know what the reply was...... can one find it online?
We don't get 702 down here, he reckons they limited his time, and also reckon that somebody else also phoned in, but not aired before Jim and mentioned the 2nd Galleon...
Just heard that a meeting was being held today with the mine and the experts who have started to arrive...... I have asked my source to get me names of the people....... lets see what experts these are......
Sorry for the long absence but I am away, at sea, excavating a wreck, with hardly a whisper of an internet link (in cold water, on the mouth of a river with almost nil visibility, here are two pics).
There is indeed a meeting going on in Namibia and three portuguese are there: the Portuguese consul, Francisco Alves, the director of the National Center for Underwater Archaeology and Luis Filipe Castro, who worked with us here Portugal and is now an associate professor in Underwater Archaeology with the Institute of Nautical Archaeology, Texas A&M University.
Alexandre'...thanks for that, what are you guys looking for in the river? May we know where the river is?
idontknow
I believe excavations by the Professional will begin on the 5th of September......
Quote from: Michael Alexander on August 22, 2008, 04:53:57 AM
Alexandre'...thanks for that, what are you guys looking for in the river? May we know where the river is?
Sure, its in the Arade river. After the Guadiana, the Arade is the most significant waterway west of the Bay of Cadiz. Both rivers discharge in the Algarve, the southern part of Portugal that constitutes the oceanic intrusion of Andaluzia, the Iberian historical and geographical interface between the Atlantic ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.
As such - and unsurprisingly - both it's coastal area and it's hinterland have been influenced since pre-historic times by these two great cultural territories. Silves, 12 km upriver on the Arade was a flourishing city on the Islamic period; Portimão was developed, on it's west bank, probably from a still archaeologically undocumented Portus Hannibalis.
It is in the Arade river that we find the oldest reference to a shipwreck in Portugal, from a written note by the muslim chronicler Ibn Adati, dating the partial destruction of a Viking fleet, that sailed upriver on the intent of attacking Šilb (Silves) to the 1º ragebe of the year 355 (the 23rd July, 996).
The underwater cultural heritage potential of the river Arade has not ceased to grow in notoriety since 1970, the year in which several ancient remains, nautical and non-nautical, mainly dating back to the Roman period, were recovered during the dredging works done at the river's mouth. The Divisão de Arqueologia Náutica e Subaquática (DANS), aware since it's creation in 1997 - as CNANS and following in the footsteps of the MNA in the 80's - of the Arade river's importance in terms of underwater archaeology has organized a series of yearly projects and interventions. In 2004, CNANS made, under contract by Instituto Portuário e dos Transportes Marítimos – Delegação do Sul, a magnetic and a side scan sonar survey of the lower riverine area in order to minimize and mitigate the impact caused by future dredgings. In this survey, about 200 man-made targets were located and inspected in two months by the CNANS archaeology diving teams – as a result, several of these targets showed intrinsically archaeological potential.
The most significant of these targets, located south of the São João castle, was code named Arade 23. This tumulus of ballast stone, ship timbers and fixed rigging elements was the object of the 2007 archaeological survey campaign promoted by DANS. This campaign had two objectives: first, to document the remains, as is usual with any archaeologically significant find; second, to participate in the MACHU, the European project that has, in Portugal, two test-pilot areas, the ria de Aveiro and the rio Arade.
That's where we were until today...
Here we go... the official statement from yesterdays briefing....
Still very exciting...
I do not know if I posted this somewhere, but I believe work on the wreck should be commencing on the 5th of Sept...
In other developments , local Oranjemund politicians were highly pissed of after the National news last night reported that The Luderitz business community had allocated funds for a museum to be built for "their " wreck to be located to Luderitz......
Bugger them..... since when does 30 km north of Oranjemund constitute the Luderitz Waterfront.....
shutface
you tell them Mike!
Huh, I think this is the first time I agree with Mike, I must be getting sick or something, where's my meds!
:buffo9:
Quote from: Michael Alexander on August 28, 2008, 07:07:40 PM
I do not know if I posted this somewhere, but I believe work on the wreck should be commencing on the 5th of Sept...
In other developments , local Oranjemund politicians were highly pissed of after the National news last night reported that The Luderitz business community had allocated funds for a museum to be built for "their " wreck to be located to Luderitz......
Bugger them..... since when does 30 km north of Oranjemund constitute the Luderitz Waterfront.....
shutface
It's supposed to be on the 5th, yes.
By the way, that stakeholders meeting agreed on calling it the "oranjemund wreck" instead of the "U60 wreck"... :)
The U60 Wreck sounds like a world war 2 submarine!
Quote from: Michael Alexander on August 29, 2008, 12:48:22 AM
The U60 Wreck sounds like a world war 2 submarine!
That's why it was changed! :)
maybe the U105 elephant fell off the U60 ship......... 202
ha ha
Quote from: cynsal on September 01, 2008, 04:00:09 AM
maybe the U105 elephant fell off the U60 ship......... 202
It certainly left all it's teeth there... cheerup
I just realised the our Dr.Dieter Nolie is the same person advertised on the cover of the Bedrock cd, advertised on the Advertiser board..... Thats him crawling through the desert.....
allgood
Does this mean I will have to witch-43 to Luderitz in November to get a glimpse of the wreck?
image031 Thought I could "hi-jack" one or two of those teeth - mine are getting quite worn out now?
The wreck is way off limits...... trex-073
Quote from: Michael Alexander on September 03, 2008, 06:11:18 PM
The wreck is way off limits...... trex-073
It might be... but, the question is: is there any good place in OM to have a beer, say... next week?
Funny that you should mention that, I have been known to have more than enough ice cold beers and a warm fire .... just head to the local Shop and ask for MIKE!
36_1_72
COme to think of it...don't you actually owe me 3 beers?
:wow1:
Ok, I'll rephrase it: is there any good place in OM to have six beers... say... next week?
See....... that was easy....... give me a shout when you get to town.....I'm in the local SPAR.... and I hope that 6 beers is not your limit.......! beermug20
Alexandre, I know you will need a secretary to take notes for you, so I volanteer for the job.
I know you do, 'cos you and Mike will have a beer in each hand and will therefore you will not be able to do the writing and/or typing yourself...... 202
Mike, don't go wrecking poor Alexandre with all the beer!
Who? Me?... never...just gonna show him so good 'ol fashioned Oranjemund Hospitality.... BierSuip
Filipe told me that he is still trying to get cured of all that "hospitality" back in Texas.. ;)
How's the weather?
It's not my fault that 'ol Filipe and DOnny could'nt keep pace with the Namibians...... send us some more underwater drinkers and we'll see hwta we can do with them..... image201
The weather is cool, but clear and perfect....... but the wind has to be lurking out there somewhere...it always blows here..... Funny enough when the Creedy's returned to Oranjemund after 30 years.....one of the first things they said.... "I see the wind is still blowing!"...so a good day .... is any day when the wind does not blow......
Quote from: Michael Alexander on September 05, 2008, 06:30:28 AM
The weather is cool, but clear and perfect....... but the wind has to be lurking out there somewhere...it always blows here.....
Funny that.... and I wonder... from what quadrant does it blow more frequently? Southwest?
From the South West....it all has to do with the cold ocean and warm desert..... msn emoticon (9)
Here's the weather folks
That's quite cool Paul, where did you get that from? :emot112_2:
GO on Paul...tell 'em.... he was bragging to me this morning about it at his office.....but it is indeed a nifty gadget....
:ciupa1:
Stollen.......... :nono1:
Quote from: Michael Alexander on September 05, 2008, 10:12:31 AM
From the South West....it all has to do with the cold ocean and warm desert..... msn emoticon (9)
It was not hard to guess... that's one of the reasons that shipwreck is out there, it got blown out of course.
Oh wow, so from the sounds of it, Alexandre is planning a trip to good o'l Oranjemund? Oh I am sooooo jealous.. Think I should help Dalene with those notes. Think its always best that two take notes. (There is always two sides to every story) ... 202
Yes I agree that Alexandre will never get to enjoy hospitality like "Oranjemund" hospitality and he is in for a fab time if he manages to find the SPAR and MIKE ...
Just make sure you guys think about us whilst sipping on those "SIX" beers eh?
36_1_72 :auguri1: BierSuip
Here we go again!
I was goind to do a test run today......... :nono1:
A test run and the real thing on, let's say, Wednesday?
Damn! Me and my big mouth......... Wednesday...Mhhhh! Will check with my Schedule...... yellocard
I'm not going to say too much on this, or mention any names, but it seems that there are a whole host of individuals that now want to benefit from this discovery.... this type of thing can only bring out the worst in people, wanting to know, how or what can I get from this wreck.....
It sad when you hear the professional undersea archeaologists discussing with passion the historical importance of this wreck, not one of them that I have spoken to , are interested in shiney bright coins or the value of the loot, but rather the value in the rotten timbers themselves....
My own two cents, watch this beautiful thing turn ugly.....
yesno
Quote from: Michael Alexander on September 07, 2008, 06:39:10 AM
Damn! Me and my big mouth......... Wednesday...Mhhhh! Will check with my Schedule...... yellocard
Looks like I'll have to take a rain check on those beers... somebody gotta stay behind and do the archival work that needs to be done. :)
Anyhow, Miguel Aleluia - a big, burly man, that has more shipwrecks in one finger than I have in my two both hands - should be landing today at OM, together with Francisco (we as there last August). Tell him that Monteiro wants him to pay you the beer and that I'll pay him back in Aveiro... :)
Ha! you just managed to escape that one...... Oh! Well, next time....
BierSuip
Quote from: Michael Alexander on September 10, 2008, 09:32:31 AM
It sad when you hear the professional undersea archeaologists discussing with passion the historical importance of this wreck, not one of them that I have spoken to , are interested in shiney bright coins or the value of the loot, but rather the value in the rotten timbers themselves....
Hey, we are interested in everything! That's the beauty of your wreck, it is an very complete assemblage of an outgoing cargo to India, something that is a first worldwide.
Let me share with you some of my research so far. When Francisco showed me the photos he took in Namibia, the
"trident-like" mark on one of those copper ingots rang a bell. Then I figured it out: I had seen it before on the International Journal of Nautical Archaeology, edition of 1986, where Blake and Green describe a mid-16th century
portuguese wreck salvaged by treasure hunters in the Seychelles, although they did not arrive at a conclusion to what that mark meant
If only we could find the foundry/owner that produced those marks (that is, if they were indeed maker or ownership marks and not some signs related to the weight of the ingot or it's copper content) and the time frame they were produced we then could both date the Oranjemund wreck and the Seychelles one with greater accuracy.
I conducted a little more research and found out that that mark belongs to the Fugger's, the most proeminent family of banker (they financed the Pope and several european kings in the whole 16th century) and, surprise, the family is still active today and got a whole archive sitting in Germany!
http://www.fugger.de/de/l2_fuggerarchiv.htm (http://www.fugger.de/de/l2_fuggerarchiv.htm)
I contacted the archive and got a very positive response one week later. They were thrilled to hear abou this find (at least, that's what I could make for their reply - I had three years of German in high school and I forgot almost all of it - it's your turn, Georg :)
"Sehr geehrter Herr Monteiro,
vielen Dank für diese Überraschung! Es handelt sich eindeutig um das
Handelszeichen der Firma Fugger.
Ich werde Ihnen ausführlicher antworten, sobald ich wegen Baumaßnahmen
dazu komme. Entschuldigen Sie, daß ich trotz der Bedeutung dieses Fundes
so knapp antworte.
Mit guten Wünschen
Franz Karg
Fugger-Archiv"Anyhow, a visit to the Fugger archive, in Germany, might shed some light to this cargo in particular, maybe a year for production/sale - and again, what we have here is a clear connection with Portugal, through it's Antwerp trading post.
Since copper stopped to be traded in bullion form from the mid-16th century onwards, I am still sticking to early 16th century date for the loss - 1526 til 1538 if we bring the 10 cruzados coins into the equation.
Hi Alexandre
That adds to the puzzle and seems to confirm tha dating
I am sure you can communicate in english with the Fugger archive officials
Here my rough translation of the answer from Fugger
Dear Mr. Monteiro,
thank you for this surprise!
It is clearly the trade mark of the Fugger company .
I will answer in more detail you, as soon as I come to it, we have construction measures at the moment.
Excuse the short answer despite theimportance of this find.
Reagrds
Franz meager Fugger Archiv"
An article in the AZ today
http://www.az.com.na/lokales/ausgrabungen-gehen-weiter.72841.php
Quote from: georgswa (Georg Ruf) on September 10, 2008, 10:49:38 AM
Hi Alexandre
That adds to the puzzle and seems to confirm tha dating
I am sure you can communicate in english with the Fugger archive officials
Hi Georg, thanks for the translation! And I did wrote them in English - they, however, replied in German.. :)
I heard this at the tea party I went to on Sunday.....it seems that Andrew Darne actually picked up a wooden mast of sorts way back in September last year....being the avid sailor that he is, it caught his eye.....this was found at U105, way before the wreck was found in April.... I caught up with him today in the shop to ask if this was true, to which he replied in the affirmative....adding that there were other smaller bits and pieces of wood, leather and even what appeared to be bones... anyhow, he reckons by now, that area is underwater again or the ground is now part of the seawall..... he reckons he could have kicked himself for not getting hold of old Bob Burrell at the time....... but this makes interesting gossip.....
The mast is now with the rest of the wreck collection..... this also begs the question, if one would credit ol' Andrew with part of the find...
One also wonders how many other artifacts have gone through the plants and landed up in pieces on the mine dumps...
We are indeed living in interesting times....
Maybe Alexandre can help with this. I know that coins have been found on the west coast of Namibia in the past, including Spanish Reale's like the ones on these pictures. I know some of them might be too young to be part of the wreck, but the other seems to be in the same time frame.
Heard from a reliable source that local, national and foreign media will be arriving in our little town on Sunday and Monday for a tour and briefing of the Shipwreck area.... This is gonna get interesting....... and off course the question which was discussed earlier on this forum..... What about the 2nd wreck...... SOmebody phone Jim Murray..... woo_hoo
@ Bertie about the coins
This may interest you
Philp´s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Spain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_IV_of_Spain
Coins
http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/numismatics/spain/Spain.htm
@ Daddy Georg - Thanks for the info, will have a look tonight after work! Keep well, we miss you when you're quiet!
Quote from: Bertie Horak on September 17, 2008, 11:18:41 AM
Maybe Alexandre can help with this. I know that coins have been found on the west coast of Namibia in the past, including Spanish Reale's like the ones on these pictures. I know some of them might be too young to be part of the wreck, but the other seems to be in the same time frame.
Hi Bertie, I am no coin expert but one tell tale sign with those coins is that they have been milled and not stamped. Early coins (that is, ealier than the 18th century, generally) were stamped with a hammer and were cut from a rod of metal, sometimes with scissors (they are known as "cobs"). If you look closely, they have a serrated rim, too - this was done to prevent people from "shaving" the coin, effectively removing some slivers of gold or silver. After all, at that time, coins had intrinsic value it's weight of the metal.
Anyhow, I am guessing that they are all from that period (1744, as stamped on the two 8 reales coins) since, on the first one, the 4 reales coin, the name of the king is Philip V - he ruled from 1700-1746. I am also guessing that those coins are coming from that wreck we talked about here, on this thread, some pages ago - "in 1964, a group of scientists from the U.S. were doing a diamond prospecting survey near the Skeleton Coast of Namibia. While they were on the beach they began finding hundreds of silver coins. Most of them were Dutch VOC coins with some scatterings of Spanish Pieces of Eight. The coins varied in dates from 1744 to 1746. In the sea the scientists spotted a ballast pile and several bronze cannons. They even filmed the event on 16mm filmcamera and later had it edited onto video. Copies of this film are very rare and hard to find. The shipwreck from which the coins and cannons must come from is believed to be the VLISSINGEN. Travelling from Holland to India via the Cape, she ran aground around Meob (halfway between Luederitz and Walvis Bay) at the Namibian coast in 1747."
@ Alexandre - Wow, thank you for responding! Very informative and interesting. It's amazing to think those coins survived the elements for more than 250 years!
I wonder how many ancient shipwrecks line our shores without us knowing about it, and the possibility of losing all the facts & history and evidence that goes with it - sad!
Will do a bit more searching on the WWW. daman
Quite a few old coins found on the beach at Meob Bay by Ronnie Dyason and others who fished there in the 60s and 70s. Also found a few in G Area whilst working on screening plant. Dated 1730, they had a pic of a rider on a horse on one side with a sword in his raised hand.On the other side is a coat of arms with standing lions on either side and with one in the centre of the shield. Interesting times for shipwrecks.
Quote from: Gordon Brown on September 18, 2008, 10:07:34 AM
Quite a few old coins found on the beach at Meob Bay by Ronnie Dyason and others who fished there in the 60s and 70s. Also found a few in G Area whilst working on screening plant. Dated 1730, they had a pic of a rider on a horse on one side with a sword in his raised hand.On the other side is a coat of arms with standing lions on either side and with one in the centre of the shield. Interesting times for shipwrecks.
Something like this Gelderland (Netherlands) silver ducatoon from the wreck of the Vliegen Hart (1735)?
Exactly the same, even the writing.
Quote from: Gordon Brown on September 18, 2008, 11:31:25 AM
Exactly the same, even the writing.
Nice. It must be from another (or the same) VOC wreck.
( I am really considering doing underwater archaeology consulting online... :) )
pls
@ Alexandre - Why not? You're good at it, and your replies always make very interesting reading!! Hey, but will we Oranjemunders be paying a reduced consultation fee? swink
Hey, I always answer for free - as they say, knowledge is power and I like everybody to be empowered. :)
Bah! Hambug! you were meant to empower me with a few beers....... I gain great knowledge after a few beers!
Ja Mike, you'll get your beers, but I think when there's a question about a 1357 wooden dinghy found in the Nile, I'd rather ask Alexandre. On the other hand, if I wanted to ask which sporting team wears disgusting orange outfits - I'll ask you! Nah, just joking Mike, we love you lots, and I promise you I'll give you a beer for each of the difficult questions when I visit you in the near future if I'm still welcome at your braai! pls
:nono1: I appear to be banned from braaing and getting stupid on the weekends.... have to wait for awhile i guess... notfair image031
Banned from getting stupid on the weekends.........a miracle is about to occur laughpoint
Thanks for warning me Mike, I'll just change my plans so I arrive there on a Monday, so we'll have 5 days of questions and beer! woo_hoo
That OK, Michele? We won't make a noise, promise! AND we wont make a mess! AND we'll call it a tea party!
Oooh! Tea Parties.....I'm allowed to go to those thingys......! woo_hoo
And now .. the whole reunion going to turn into one huge tea party ?? Ouch ! cat1.gif
Which reminds me Michael .. you appear to be shipwrecked and very much on the rocks ...
Back to the topic and out of the brauhaus
@ Michael, It's not a matter of looking for glory or fame about finding the first artefacts or however sensational one wants to make it sound.
If the right attention was brought to the matter back in September perhaps a lot more artefacts could have been recovered aiding in more detail around the whole scenario. Between September 2007 and April 2008 a lot of mining took place in the 2 areas and the attitude of many in the sites was that of disrespect for the historical and archaeological value of any artefact that was uncovered. So your question carries value... how much has gone to the plant or the seawalls?
No matter how small physically, the object has endless value in piecing together the details of the vessel and its fateful ending. The attitude of "I'm not receiving any reward for reporting or declaring any artefact, why should I bother declaring it..." has a negative impact on the whole research of the actual wreck. So yeah, I can kick myself for not thinking... but it's too late now! We'll just head on with eager interest and curiosity, and THINK in future.
Out of the " brauhaus " .. well put point of view ... not looking for glory or fame ..
Yes, good point Andrew. It's sad that most people wouldn't care about old artifacts, and wouldn't think twice about driving over them with their 4x4's as well. Doesn't have to be a pot of gold, it could be a little piece of a "Strandloper" clay pot - it still has a history, with a lesson to mankind attached to it.
Only problem I have- I never know if I should pick something up or not - it may be lost if I don't, but it might also be destroyed if I report it to the wrong people!
That's what worries me too. I often ask the miners at the sites if they have seen any bits and pieces in hope of locating and collecting them with information about location etc to help piece the puzzle together. Many of these guys have no interest in the ship at all and they see it as a hindrance to the mining process. Such a pity.
Quote from: Michael Alexander on September 18, 2008, 02:48:20 PM
:nono1: I appear to be banned from braaing and getting stupid on the weekends.... have to wait for awhile i guess... notfair image031
And who exactly did this banning? Sure wasn't me - I'd rather have you stupid than sulking!
image14 23_146_26 beermug20 36_1_72
Sorry Andrew - I don't think there's a single topic on this forum that manages to stay out of the brauhaus for long!
@ Michele - so that means I can have a beer with Mike at the rugby braai? Maybe someone at the tea party told Mike he shouldn't have a wild weekend? Or was it little voices only he could hear? ha ha
@ Mike - weekend + image041 + ......
:emot112_2: Bertie - I think you hit the nail on the head - or whatever the saying is!
Me thinks Mike is hearing lots of little voices in his head, and just finds it easier to blame his poor wife!
hammer notfair
Quote from: Andrew Darné on September 18, 2008, 07:44:52 PM
Back to the topic and out of the brauhaus
@ Michael, It's not a matter of looking for glory or fame about finding the first artefacts or however sensational one wants to make it sound.
If the right attention was brought to the matter back in September perhaps a lot more artefacts could have been recovered aiding in more detail around the whole scenario. Between September 2007 and April 2008 a lot of mining took place in the 2 areas and the attitude of many in the sites was that of disrespect for the historical and archaeological value of any artefact that was uncovered. So your question carries value... how much has gone to the plant or the seawalls?
No matter how small physically, the object has endless value in piecing together the details of the vessel and its fateful ending. The attitude of "I'm not receiving any reward for reporting or declaring any artefact, why should I bother declaring it..." has a negative impact on the whole research of the actual wreck. So yeah, I can kick myself for not thinking... but it's too late now! We'll just head on with eager interest and curiosity, and THINK in future.
You think like an archaeologist! :)
But now you got me confused: are you saying that there were signs of this wreck back in September 2007?
Thats what he is saying and he kept the proof, that is now with the rest og the stuff...so in actual fact the first sign of the remains was discovered back last year and by Andrew.... not Bob or SHatika......
You should ask Andrew about his theory about that mast....I liked it....
For all you locals that like this shipwreck Story:
"CELEBRATING 100 YEARS IN MINING & CONSERVATION
The Environmental Section is hosting a series of presentations by leading Sperrgebiet scientists as part of celebrating 100 years of mining and conservation in the Sperrgebiet.
The next presentation will look at the Oranjemund Shipwreck uncovered in Mining Area No 1 in April this year and currently being excavated by an international team of scientists under the auspices of Ministry of Youth, National Service, Sports and Culture. Drs Dieter Noli and Bruno Werz will present on their current task and the highlight of their careers, the Oranjemund Shipwreck uncovered in Mining Area No 1.
Dr Noli did his Masters degree on the prehistory of the Koichab region of the Sperrgebiet, and graduated with a PhD in Archaeology in 1993. Since then he has located over 600 archaeological sites in and adjacent to the Sperrgebiet. Dr Werz did his PhD in Maritime Archaeology and was the youngest diver to work on the 16th century warship "Mary Rose". Twenty years ago he moved to Cape Town, where he lectured at the University of Cape Town, specialised in shipwrecks of the Dutch East India Company and became the founding father of scientific Maritime Archaeology on the African continent.
Title: The Oranjemund Shipwreck
Presenters: Drs Dieter Noli and Bruno Werz
When: Tuesday, 23 September 2008
Time: 18:00
Where: OPS Auditorium
Residents of Oranjemund are invited to attend what promises to be a very interesting talk.
Ronel van der Merwe Environmental Manager Tel 239321"
NEWSFLASH!: Adriaan just found a picture of the wreck, if anyone can ID the make of the motor on the back, he will buy you a coke!
That's a:
Vasco D, 1537 year model, single prop
250cc, 11,5kw output,
Top speed: 65 knots
Serie no. 1
Engine no. 1
!
woo_hoo I'll settle for a beer, thank you!
Ok....well done....in November at the reunion.... heck! I will even koop the aunty a jagermeister when she gets here...
Well! Well! ..... I have just been to a Shipwreck media presentation...I counted 14 different journalists there.... the Permanent Secretary Of the Ministry of Youth,National Service,Sport & Culture.....Dr Shipoh........ It seems the majority of the wreck will be staying in Oranjemund, nobody can take our wreck away...it was pointed out, that at this stage, the operation is a recovery operation, time is limited, so it seems like the pro's want to take as much of the wreck as they can out of the ground...... the wreck is after 1525, but not before, yes, there human remains....... this could get exciting still....
I got to meet Alexandre's replacement , Miquel.... I walked up to this large guy after the briefing ...patted him on the shoulders and demanded my free beer.... he looked at me like I was crazy..... I repeated my statement...... free beer... He blinked...wondered who the heck this guy is...then I said... I am a friend of Alexandre'...Paulo....... .I know Philipe and Donny...his face broke into a broad smile......... AHA! he exclaimed, turned to the other Portugues chap...SO you are the contact.... hehehehehe ! felt like I was in a spy movie....
(Alexandre'..what is the short guys name again?)
(Philipe, they mentioned your pepper wreck at the media briefing!)
Miquel invited me out for those free beers tonight, I humbly declined.... Those boys are busy...let them deal with their media....there are plenty of days ahead...!
Wow! to be a fly on the wall........human remains??? I'm all eyes and ears waiting impatiently for more information.........BRING IT ON!!!
Wonderful! Very envious of you Mike, right there where it's happening. msn emoticon (8)
We're only 7 hours north on the N7...
woo_hoo motorbike
7 hours - what do you drive ?
Turbo Charged Camel! woo_hoo
Jeremy just came up in his golf yesterday...did it in 6 hours...... witch-43
Quote from: Michael Alexander on September 22, 2008, 02:59:42 PM
the wreck is after 1525, but not before, yes, there human remains....... this could get exciting still....
I got to meet Alexandre's replacement , Miquel.... I walked up to this large guy after the briefing ...patted him on the shoulders and demanded my free beer.... he looked at me like I was crazy..... I repeated my statement...... free beer... He blinked...wondered who the heck this guy is...then I said... I am a friend of Alexandre'...Paulo....... .I know Philipe and Donny...his face broke into a broad smile......... AHA! he exclaimed, turned to the other Portugues chap...SO you are the contact.... hehehehehe ! felt like I was in a spy movie....
(Alexandre'..what is the short guys name again?)
(Philipe, they mentioned your pepper wreck at the media briefing!)
Miquel invited me out for those free beers tonight, I humbly declined.... Those boys are busy...let them deal with their media....there are plenty of days ahead...!
1) after 1525, yes, we had already settled that issue months before here on this forum, hadn't we? :)
2) the shorter, older guy, must be Francisco Alves, my ex-boss, my ex-teacher... :)
3) Michael. you declined free beers?? I think you got scared from his looks. Miguel Aleluia was born and raised in the Aveiro harbour, we csn beat any Oranjemunder on a free beer drinking spree with his hands tied.... :)
Scientists study 16th-century shipwreck in Namibia
ORANJEMUND, NAMIBIA Sep 22 2008 16:33
A treasure-laden 16th-century Portuguese vessel that ran aground off
Namibia's Atlantic coast was hailed on Monday by archaeologists as providing
a rare insight into the heyday of seafaring explorations between Europe and
the Orient.
"This is a cultural treasure of immense importance," Bruno Werz told
Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa) when offering journalists a first glimpse of
the precious find at the excavation site in Namibia's diamond-rich
"sperrgebiet", or no-go zone.
The shipwreck, which was discovered by geologists dredging the seabed for
diamonds in April and was covered in sand on Monday for preservation
purposes, is believed to be the oldest yet found in sub-Saharan Africa.
Werz is leading a team of archaeologists and geologists from Namibia, the
United States, Portugal, South Africa and Zimbabwe in excavating the ship.
Speculation had been rife that the vessel could be linked to Portuguese
explorer Bartholomew Diaz, the first European to round the Cape of Good Hope
in the year 1488.
But that theory was put to bed by the archaeologists, who revealed that some
of the about 2 000 gold coins discovered at the site were dated October
1525, 25 years after Diaz disappeared.
A Portuguese archaeologist described the wreck as the best-preserved example
of Portuguese seafaring efforts found outside Portugal. He attributed its
good condition to its long burial in sand, which preserves wood.
Apart from the gold, the ship's rich bounty includes 1,4kg of silver coins,
copper ingots, cannons and navigational instruments.
A trident indented on the ingots shows them to have been supplied by German
merchant house Jakob Fugger -- a known supplier of ingots to the Portuguese
crown in the era of the Habsburg dynasty.
The shipwreck is located near Oranjemund, about 160km south of the town of
Luderitz, site of a small diamond mine.
With state diamond mining company Namdeb spending vast amounts of money on
keeping the sea at bay while the excavations are taking place, pressure is
on the team to wrap up the work by early October.
The coins, which are now the property of the Namibian government, have
already been spirited away for safe-keeping. The wood is destined in the
short-term for the US, where it will be preserved. -- Sapa-dpa
Source: Mail & Guardian Online
This shipwreck story has been the most amazing thing we could ever have wished for on this site. It has been so intriguing, the men-in-black etc, a real mystery unfolding on our forum, contact with Alexandre, etc. I have been on Facebook but it has nothing on our site, it is so boring by comparison. I enjoy the conversations we have and reading everyone's views. Once again, thanks Mike!
Thanks Florrie, But I guess there are a mountain of people to thank for the interesting topics.... especially all you ex Oranjemunders..... it's your input also..... The portuguese for sending that boat to india 500 years ago.... It;s just amazing to sit back and realize what a diversified bunch of members we are.... From the Dentist to the undersea Archeaologist..... To the Man on the Run from DeBeers and right down to forget the leprechauns, Mysterious men in black and quite few reporters who have used material on this site for their articles...... It's been an amazing ride so far...... just wait for the reunion photographs..... I heard from another lady today of a few more people who had heard of the reunion and plan to attend, but are not even on this site..... one ponders in amazement!
allgood
Let's sing.....
"We are fa-mi-ly.... da-da, da-da, tra-la....."
No, it's true, I agree with Florrie. This is an amazing story, and it has been kept alive by Mike's up-to-date posting of news (which he gets from sharing a beer with influential people and hard work too), our brother Alexandre's great input, and the views of the people who've been working in that area of the mine with great additional knowledge - just a great family, I say! Thanx to all involved! woo_hoo
23_11_61
Think this calls for a group hugggggggggggg
*BIG HUGZ ALLROUND* bighug
Article in the AZ today
http://www.az.com.na/lokales/grter-fund-des-jahrhunderts.73584.php
Here's a bit of political gossip doing the rounds this fine morning in oranjemund...
Last night the Shipwreck presentation at the school audiotorium went off very well....well attended, all the seats were taken..... it turns out that afterwards the Permanent Secretary was not very happy that there were not too many previously disadvantaged Namibians at this presentation...why were'nt there more there? The reasoning was that the majority that were in attendance all had internet access.... the majority not...But then what about all the nice colour adverts that were displayed all over the town? Where were the missing previously disadvantaged people? Why were they not told....or were they not interested? The PM was not amused..... He has now demanded a second presentation on SUNDAY at 14h00 and expects to see the nation there.......
Why on a Sunday?
Will the politicians inform the masses where to go?
I would have expected that
Why should those " disadvantaged people " have interest in old wood that could be used to make a camp fire instead ???? 202
If each was given one of the coins....may be hammer
Read the relevant topic as well .. good stuff the wreck is in the open .. the right people are attending to its recovery ... and of course the politicians have to muddle in hey ??
Tell them they can have time off from work, free transport to and from the venue, a free t-shirt and 80% will be there, add a free meal and 100% will be there.
How would the previously disadvantaged gain from this presentation?
Its not changing thier lives?
Why would they have any interest in it?
Makes sense they wouldn't bother going, colourfull posters and all.
I'm sure the ship must be the talk of the town. So, the people who were really interested would have known about it or made plans to attend. The internet is not the primary communication channel in the desert I'm sure. Please, were they expecting personal invitations delivered by horse and carriage?!
If the presentation was done in the school auditorium, I would expect that the school kids would have known about it as well, therefore parents etc.
It realy Pi$$es me off the way everything revolves around the same old track, if our brothers are not interested, so what! their loss.
Georg & Florrie's coments are valid for the older generation, who are generally more interested in the cooka shops & that culture. ( I remember the last Christmas Party I attended, there was a stampede for the braaipacks, I took the wife & kids home and never went to another)
I would however have thought the some of the younger generation would have been interested?
Lots of things all rapted up in plastic "klingrap"
Story from BBC NEWS, Published: 2008/09/26
Uncovering Namibia's sunken treasure
By Frauke Jensen
BBC News, Oranjemund, Namibia
A team of international archaeologists is working round the clock to rescue the wreck of what is thought to be a 16th Century Portuguese trading ship that lay undisturbed for hundreds of years off Namibia's Atlantic coast.
The shipwreck, uncovered in an area drained for diamond mining, has revealed a cargo of metal cannonballs, chunks of wooden hull, imprints of swords, copper ingots and elephant tusks.
It was found in April when a crane driver from the diamond mining company Namdeb spotted some coins.
The project manager of the rescue excavation, Webber Ndoro, described the find as the "the most exciting archaeological discovery on the African continent in the past 100 years".
"This is perhaps the largest find in terms of artefacts from a shipwreck in this part of the world," he said.
Skeleton coast
The ship may have been unable to withstand the currents in the volatile seas off the Namibian shore.
The area is also known as the Skeleton Coast and is associated with the skeletons of wrecked ships and past stories of sailors wandering through the barren landscape in search of food and water.
Working out whose ship this was is no easy task.
Gold coins that the Portuguese crown began producing in October 1525 mean it could not have been the vessel of the famous seafarer Bartholomew Dias, who disappeared on one of his travels around the point of Africa in the year 1500.
But there are other pointers, including swivel-guns known to have been used by Portuguese and Spanish seafarers, and the boat's shape, indicating that it was a Portuguese "nau".
There are also copper ingots carrying a clearly visible trident seal that can be traced back to the German banker and merchant family of Jakob Fugger - the main suppliers of primary materials to the Portuguese crown.
Gold and silver coins have been deposited in a bank vault.
Rare navigational instruments have been sent to Portugal for research, while pewter plates and jugs, pieces of ceramic, tin blocks and elephant tusks are temporarily housed in a warehouse on the premises of the mining company.
Some are being freed of their layer of sand and salt to allow for more detailed scrutiny over their make and origin.
"It represents a very interesting cargo - we have goods from Asia, we have goods from Europe, we have goods from Africa," said Mr Ndoro.
"We always think that globalisation started yesterday but in actual fact here we are with something we can date to around 1500."
Protected
The site is about 130km (80 miles) south of the Namibian harbour town Luderitz, in an area long sealed off for mining.
The mines are established by sea-walling the ocean and dredging the dry seabed for diamonds.
Pumps ensure the sea does not reclaim the land - an exercise that is costing thousands of dollars each week.
Bruno Werz, the archaeologist leading the excavations, said the shipwreck was particularly valuable because it had not been tampered with.
"This collection has not been disturbed by human interference," he said.
"We are very fortunate to have found an untouched wreck with all the material that was on site still here in one collection."
Archaeologists from South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe, the United States, the UK and Portugal are working on the excavation, which is due to be completed by mid-October.
Thereafter the detailed work of recording and preserving, which can take up to 30 years, can begin.
Stone and metal cannonballs and other artefacts are being covered with plastic and sand to protect them from sun and air.
Mr Ndoro said the shipwreck was a very important find for Africa.
"Here we have different African countries cooperating to make sure we have saved this ship and we have something we can show to the world."
"I am sure there will be many more wrecks to be found here," he added.
"Namibia should invest in training archaeologists."
Frauke Jensen was the lady I drove around the place , my international contact.... hehehehehe!
Well, last night the 2nd shipwreck public information meeting was held at the Cinema Gym..... It was very well attended, with a quick headcount showing 96 people in attendance.....
I heard that wreck was almost submerged under water again last night, problems with a pump that was helping to pump the seawater back over the seawall.... Bruno , reckons they had a helluva night .... but everything is back to normal..... He reckons he is giving a presentation to some "Knobs" 2nite, but declined to elaborate....
Firstly how many " previously disadvanteged " attended ... how many " I been to the shipwreck party and braai T shirts and peak caps" and a bit of rah!rah! its our wreck .. sorry me just doing the cynical look .. or was it just the normal run of the mill event .... ??as for the flooding etc .. well they will now ensure that the site remains unflooded especially with the current exposure ...
I mentioned to Bruno that they should find a sponsor, like BP or SHell to sponsor that seawall.... put there banner up on it for a month.... $1 000 000 a pot..... then time will no longer be a factor......
Ammie, the National Geographic lady is still in town and is apparantly doing High Tec photography on the site in the evenings, smoke and lazer stuff.....
Can't wait for that edition of National Geographic to come out!
I heard this morning that the shed that is used to store the recovered artifacts, is now to small to accomodate all the pieces and the shed is now being doubled in size....
I heard this morning, that the ship , over the years, actually caved/crashed in on itself, and that there is still another level to excavate, the bottom level.... more treasure perhaps? Slaves?
I heard this morning, that the Minister and a few other dignatories will be arriving on Friday to "view" the excavation!
I heard this morning that the wreck will soon be able to be "lifted" from it's final wresting place!
Thats all that I hears today!
You hears a lot, Mike. Thanks for keeping us in the loop. allgood
Yes, thanks, very interesting.
geez hey. Do the people speak that loud in OM or do you hear that well Mike??
Actually , people whisper in my ear in this town..... they don't want to get into trouble..... image14 :nono1: :nono1:
Ok..... I heard a few more bits and pieces, (Thanks to a few people, who I owe a drink or two when I see you again!)
I heard that due to a funeral this weekend, the PM and minister will not be visiting the site...
I heard that the wreck is to be "lifted", but not right now....there is apparently 3 metres from were the excavation is now to the bedrock underneath! So only the top level has been excavavted!
I heard that this weekend might produce exciting results, I cannot disclose if this would take the form of treasure or more importantly , the name and crew of ship!
I heard that certain members of the team believe that a few of the poor sailors more than likely made it to land...(which we debated on this forum, back in April....with regard to which direction do you go when you hit the desert..... Alexandre' reckoned north, al'a portugues in Angola...little did they perhaps know that a mere 16km south lay the mighty Orange river!
I heard that there are plenty more experts arriving next week!
I heard, that this wreck, is only the Stern of the ship.... where? Oh! Where is that bow!, Like Andy said on this forum, it's either part of the seawall...or 100 m up on a mine dump!
I heard that the experts are going to go throught the mines records, with record to strange objects recovered.....
Man! is'nt this the best story you have ever followed in many a year......
:emot112_2:
Yes Mike that is a top story, Pity only the slow releases by the officials
On the news24 article..... that there is only 10 days left till the wall comes down, it;s costing N$100 000 a day to keep the place dry....... Can;t the American Senate throw some of that U$ 700 billion this way.... it seems almost a crime to rush such an important and historical find....
Mike - send them a mail there, Boet! You never know......?
They have found more gold coins. And going to encase the remains in concrete so as to preserve it. A museum will be opened in OMD where some of the relics etc will be on permanent display. So even more for the tourists to view.
Thanks to Namdeb for taking the initiative. woo_hoo
Heard that they found an intact perfectly preserved Powder horn!
Heard they found more human bones!
Heard they found ye olde shoe...
Heard that National Geographic was allowed to place some of the artifacts on the wreck for photo shoot last night!
Heard that two of the Portuguese team will be leaving on the 12th.... Francisco and MIquel.....
Alexandre' .. I will make a plan soon and get them around for a braai! Stennie, you're backup....
:ciupa1:
beermug20 36_1_72 - here we go again!
Think I'm going to rooster soon!
Had Robin staying this week, will have Emma and her dad from Sunday probably and next month guests from Scotland for the reunion.
idontknow
I thought I was in the retail trade - not the accommodation business!
allgood
:emot112_2: yougogirl pls 3d smiles(297)
You should open a B&B as a side line.......at least you'll be getting paid for what you are already doing dawoman
Mike,
Ask them for a picture of the power horn, I had mine pinched while living in Oranjemund ! ( Made it myself, brass tip & horn plugas well)
Quote from: Michael Alexander on October 03, 2008, 03:19:44 PM
Heard that two of the Portuguese team will be leaving on the 12th.... Francisco and MIquel.....
Alexandre' .. I will make a plan soon and get them around for a braai! Stennie, you're backup....
:ciupa1:
I heard that some telephone numbers were exchanged.... I've let Francisco to be aware of the said 3 beers in debt...
Hahahahaha! Alexandre' you, my friend are indeed right, there were phone numbers exchanged.... In fact I even have your number..... But I will only be using it when it is at least 03h00 in Portugal and I am full of beer.... image201
Quote from: Michael Alexander on October 03, 2008, 08:59:53 PM
Hahahahaha! Alexandre' you, my friend are indeed right, there were phone numbers exchanged.... In fact I even have your number..... But I will only be using it when it is at least 03h00 in Portugal and I am full of beer.... image201
As long as you're the one paying the phone bill, I am okay with it - at 3 am is when I work best (that, of course, if I am not full of beer..) :)
Quote from: Clive Symes on October 03, 2008, 06:17:44 PM
Mike,
Ask them for a picture of the power horn, I had mine pinched while living in Oranjemund ! ( Made it myself, brass tip & horn plugas well)
You can have mine, from a Spanish galleon I excavated in 1998, in situ and after dismantling for preservation... :)
Ran the risk of being submerged: Lisbon safeguards traces of the sixteenth century Portuguese ship discovered off the coast of Namibia
01.10.2008,Lusa, PUBLICO
Lisbon said today it´s in it's interest "vital" to protect the remains of a Portuguese ship of the XVI century, discovered on the coast of Namibia. The Ministry of Culture announced this in reacting to news that gave account of the risk of submersion menacing the ship.
In a clarification to the media, the Ministry of Culture reacts "to the news made public in recent days," noting that already in early September it was "clear that the fundamental interests of the Portuguese Government was to ensure the full protection of remains concerned".
THE PUBLICO reported on Monday that the sixteenth century Portuguese ship was in risk of being submerged after the 10th of October, an information that the Portuguese Ministry of Culture did not have to past Sunday, as recognized by the spokesman Rui Peças.
According to news advanced Saturday by the French agency AFP, the Namibian government and De Beers, one of the world's largest producers of diamonds - which over the past six months have kept the integrity of the find - do not intend to spend after that date the EUR 1700 per day that the operation involves.
Lisbon recalls that the namibian government invited the Portuguese to take part in the rescue efforts of the Portuguese ship and that the climate is of "full cooperation and commitment" an opinion reiterated in a recent meeting on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, between diplomatic representatives of the two countries.
According to the release, this meeting resulted in the dislocation to Portugal of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Namibia, on a date to schedule,
goodmorning Alexandre,
Does this mean the Portugese government is going to keep the ship dry from now? Maybe we should all donate a bag of sand to build a wall!
Can't wait for the next bit of juicy info...When we left grab(1)
According to the release, this meeting resulted in the dislocation to Portugal of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Namibia, on a date to schedule,
Does it mean they had a fallout?
Sorry, bad translation coupled with a misspell... :)
From todays Republikein:
"Skatskip nou veilig op land (...) Geen verdere besonderhede is bekend nie. 'n Portugese geskiedkundige en mariene argeoloog, dr. Alexandre Monteiro, wat vroeër vanjaar verantwoordelik was vir die identifisering van die meer as 2 000 muntstukke uit die skeepswrak, het aan Republikein gesê sy aannames oor die identiteit van die skip is gegrond op geskiedkundige verwysings en kruisverwysings asook 'n "ingeligte raaiskoot" dat die wrak moontlik die Bom Jesus is.
I bet they are saying I am terrorist or that I am about to eat badly thawed chicken.....
(I guess one is never too old to learn Afrikaans)
I have started the translation, in between the real work I do now and again...
"SHipwreck nou safely on land
The Sao Joao(Bom Jesus) , an impressive triple deck Portuguese Trading ship, what went missing during 2533 on the west coast of africa, has been "lifted" from it's seagrave at Oranjemund. The recovery of the 16th century wreck reached a climax this week, when the remaining wooden frame was removed in the presence of a high ranking delegation.
In another exciting breakthrough, archeaologists on the site, discovered 16 century Arabian coins. "We are extremely happy, everything went well", said Sr.Shipoh, the head of the recovery and rescue operation at Oranjemund (told the Republikein)
Research in Germany and Portugal has meanwhile revealed that the treasue ship could possibly be the Bom Jesus of S.Jao , captained by Dom Franciso de Noronha. Portuguese historians have pointed out that the vessel was part of the 1533 Armada that sank of the Cape of Good Hope."
post more just now...
No further details are available, a Portuguese historian and underwater arceaologist, Dr Alexandre' Monteiro, who was earlier this year responsible for the identification of more than 2000 coins from the wreck, told the Republikien, that in his opinion about the identity of the ship, is based apon the historical refrences and cross refrences as well as an "intelligent guess" , that the wreck might possibly be the Bom Jesus.
Mike, don't lie to Alexandre - that Afrikaans report says that Alexandre is an old Portugese guy, who took a shot in the dark when under crossfire, that only Jesus knows if that wreck was bombed!
BoomSmilie_anim 202
@Dalene.... you forgot the chicken part... 202
"In my informed opinion, is that the recovered artifacts from the wreck could be those of (ship's captain" Dom Francisco de Noronha, possibly the Nau Sao Joao Boaventura of the first fleet of 1522, under the command of Dom Joao Pereira. The previous Captains (of the Sao Joao Boaventura) were Lourenço de Paiva, Diogo Brandão, Dom Gonçalo Coutinho, Simão da Veiga en Nuno Furtado de Mendoça," the researcher informed us, via email from Germany
( sorry for the bad translation..this is my best ...I thought you were in Portugal?"
Dr.Monteiro had earlier identified the coins as cruzados which were minted from 1525 onwards. The discovery put paid to all suggestions that the ship belonged to the explorer , Bartolomeu Dias. Dr. Monteiro was also responsible for the identification of the large quantity(tons) of copper balls, due to the German Fugger trademark.
Dr.Shipoh, who recently returned to Oranjemund , where he was present for the lifting of the remaing wooden fram of the ship, said yesterday, that he has not yet been informed on the possible name of the ship. Dr.Shipoh was with the The Minister of Youth,National Service , Sport and Culture, Mr.Willem Konjore, the minister of Mines and Energy, Mr Erkkie Nghimtina and the minister of Information and Communications technology, Mr Joel Kaapanda , at Oranjemund
Dr. Shipoh also announced that the government had given permission that the recovery operation would continue for long as was neccessary and that no final(conclusion) date would apply to the ship and it's cargo. "The researchers would have concluded the removal of the last wooden pieces yesterday and then seenwhat lay under the wreck"
we have recovered more gold and silver coins and coins from Arabia. "This is no longer an emergency rescue anymore, but a total recovery. There is a general concensus that a recovery team always leaves something behind at a site...
In this case the site is seven metres under water level and there is no reason why any parts of the wreck or artifacts need to be left behind. The site will be thoroughly marked for future refrences and reports drawn up on everything that has been recovered, will be preserved in a museum, stated Mr Shipoh.
THE END
Quote from: Michael Alexander on October 10, 2008, 09:02:13 AM
@Dalene.... you forgot the chicken part... 202
"In my informed opinion, is that the recovered artifacts from the wreck could be those of (ship's captain" Dom Francisco de Noronha, possibly the Nau Sao Joao Boaventura of the first fleet of 1522, under the command of Dom Joao Pereira. The previous Captains (of the Sao Joao Boaventura) were Lourenço de Paiva, Diogo Brandão, Dom Gonçalo Coutinho, Simão da Veiga en Nuno Furtado de Mendoça," the researcher informed us, via email from Germany
( sorry for the bad translation..this is my best ...I thought you were in Portugal?"
I thought so.... maybe I am wrong and I am about to ring Georg's doorbell...
@ Alexandre, any time if you need translation, but in to english LOL
Many thanks, Michael. :)
Just to set the record straight:
- I am in Portugal;
- I only identified three of those coins (I haven't seen the rest of them);
- The other captains were captains of other ships of the same fleet not of the same ship;
- We still dont know if this was that ship. I am betting we will never will, for sure. And even if it was this ship, I pretty much doubt ith would be a triple decker...
This still makes interesting reading though...... what intrigues me though...is the survivors...what happened to them? Where did they go?
Huh.... are you telling me that rooster survived and went astray in the Namib? Must be those huge birds you see on occasion - now calling themselves ostriches! image281
I personally think if there were any survivors from the wreck, they might not have survived that barren strip of desert. One will actually never truly know - but on the other hand, that part of the coast was already mapped then and for sure they would have been aware of the Orange river just south of where the were wrecked. But none of the other ships in the fleet (if there were any others) could actually anchor close enough in a safe bay and send out search parties for survivors, so....
Hey Dalene,did'nt MIke tell you that he thinks he may have been part of the cargo that landed here.... image04 and give Mariaan a tinkle on the email if you are going to stay here ... okay image19 swink
Let's go back in time... :)
1) a pewter cup;
2) a navigational divider;
3) a gunpowder horn;
4) a sword hilt
5) a spanish gold coin - a "doble excelente de oro" from the Catholic kings, minted 1494 till mid-16th century;
6) an overview of the wreck site;
7) timbers from the wreck;
8) a bronze mortar
9) a collection of padronized weights;
10) a frying pan;
11) drawing timber;
12) sword scabbard tips and musket ball
13) musket cleaning rods;
14) a Portuguese copper coin;
15) rope coiled around ship's timber;
16) raising an outboard strake.
Wow, thanks Alexandre! :emot112_2:
Thanks Alexandre, great pictures
Fantastic.
:emot112_2:
Yep! Yep! Impressive stuff..... guess it would be fair to say that the real work only starts now!
Hi Alexandre,talking about muskets,i saw some nice musket balls removed,hate to get shot with them though BoomSmilie_anim
@Alexandre'...what about some photo's from the lisbon photo exhibition?
For those of you who had been following this epic tale of the Oranjemund Wreck., you would have heard that, prior to the initial wreck being discovered, about 6 months prior, Andy found a junk of wood a few km's north of the current wreck.... being the true sailor that he is, he knew it was part of a wooden vessel and recovered the item.... here are some snaps from that mast...
.
.
.
And my jaw keeps falling open about how good some of the items and actually the wood also was 'preserved' (can I call it that?) after all these 100's of years buried beneath the sand! Amazing....
From today's Namibian
Hi all, long time no talk, uh? :)
Been the last couple of days with the National Geographic man in Lisbon, it seems that the main feature on the NGM will appear on March or April next year. I also have more news on that one of a kind piece of mast as well as a 1616 drawing of one of it's kind: interested, anyone? :)
Yep! Yep!... I know Andrew will be interested!
Yes, please Alexandre!
Marine Wrecks, always interested.
Quote from: Bertie Horak on November 08, 2008, 03:03:29 AM
Yes, please Alexandre!
The first two drawings are from a 1616 shipwright Portuguese book: the "Livro de Traças de Carpintaria". You can check, on the actual photos of the actual top tip of the mast, that they are identical. As far as I know, this is the first surviving example, worldwide, of such a mast assembly.
Always fantastic when you can verify things like this.
From the photos I was amazed at the preservation of the timber after so many years.
Years ago I obtained a copy of a map from the Bredarsdorp museum that indicates how many ships went down off the Cape Coast, its a pity that realy so little has survived or been recovered.
Wow, Thank You Alexandre. That definitely looks the same as the picture. And it looks like it's been cut from a single piece of wood, you can see the circular tree rings clearly. It's really amazing, and touches something deep inside - to know that it was people working hard to fabricate those parts with their hands, without machines, and it served a purpose that we can see so long after they lived. Somehow it does feel like we are being connected to the past and civilizations from years gone by. 23_11_61
What type of tree is that wood from? It held up pretty well all these years in the Damp namib!
Quote from: Michael Alexander on November 09, 2008, 05:59:24 AM
What type of tree is that wood from? It held up pretty well all these years in the Damp namib!
Well, that's for the archaeologists over there to find out. But I am guessing it might be some kind of northern european oak or something similar. By the way, here's a drawing of my "suspect" for that wreck of yours and a more detailed view of the wreck as imagined by the artist, c. 60 years after the event.
More pics, here: http://static.publico.clix.pt/docs/cultura/tesouroescondido/ (http://static.publico.clix.pt/docs/cultura/tesouroescondido/)
Wow! Great good quality pictures. Thank you, Alexandre. Amazing stuff!
Quote from: Alexandre on November 10, 2008, 05:19:41 AM
More pics, here: http://static.publico.clix.pt/docs/cultura/tesouroescondido/ (http://static.publico.clix.pt/docs/cultura/tesouroescondido/)
For those of you that are under the impression this link is for more pictures like the above ones, it isn't. This is like a movie of the wreck site and what was found there, unfortunately the commentary is in portuguese but the pictures are beautiful and clear. Definitely worth looking at. Thanks Alexandre.
Quote from: Florrie van Zyl (Muir) on November 10, 2008, 04:33:17 PM
Quote from: Alexandre on November 10, 2008, 05:19:41 AM
More pics, here: http://static.publico.clix.pt/docs/cultura/tesouroescondido/ (http://static.publico.clix.pt/docs/cultura/tesouroescondido/)
For those of you that are under the impression this link is for more pictures like the above ones, it isn't. This is like a movie of the wreck site and what was found there, unfortunately the commentary is in portuguese but the pictures are beautiful and clear. Definitely worth looking at. Thanks Alexandre.
Indeed, Florrie, this is from the Portuguese leading newspaper site. The voice over is from our underwater heritage manager, Dr. Francisco Alves, who was in OJ and is commentings the photos. :)
Most defs worth looking at!
notfair - will be in OM and not allowed to go to the site! Boo hoo hoooooo
Great Link Alexandre' , nice stuff... I have'nt seen those pics yet!
R they 100% sure, that Andrew's mast is part of the same ship.....? the woods look different in the pics.....
Well, they are bound to be different. Wood for the hulk would be grown in Portugal. Wood for masts and spars used to be bought in Northern Europe, Poland, for instance.
Anyhow, you are right: archaeologically speaking they are non-connected finds.
From today's Republikein (translation needed...)
Oranjemund se skatskip
Die eerste en blykbaar die enigste skets van ses van die sewe skepe van Portugal se 1533-vloot na Indië waarvan die "Bom Jesus" nie haar eindbestemming bereik het nie. Die vloot het onder bevel gestaan van die twee meesterkapteins, Don Gonçalo Coutinho en Don João Pireyra. Die "Bom Jesus" onder bevel van Francisco de Noronha het "iewers by die Kaap van Goeie Hoop" in 'n storm verdwyn net om 500 jaar later op Namibiese grond gevind te word. Francisco de Noronha was van adellike afkoms en was die Ridder van Santiago in die koningshuis van Odemira. Die skets van die sewe vaartuie is opgeneem in die boek, O Livro das Armadas Memória das Armadas, en dateer uit die jare na 1566. Die skilder is onbekend. Foto's en inligting is vanuit Lissabon deur dr. Alexandre Monteiro verskaf.
Die skildery van die "Bom Jesus" wat in April vanjaar in die diamantgebied by Oranjemund gevind is. Dit is opvallend dat die skip se seile op dié skets net bo die water uitsteek met die onderskrif "perdido" wat aandui dat dit vergaan het
http://www.republikein.com.na/politiek-en-nasionale/oranjemund-se-skatskip.76240.php (http://www.republikein.com.na/politiek-en-nasionale/oranjemund-se-skatskip.76240.php)
Alexandre - Here's translation for you:
Oranjemund's treasure ship
The first and apparently only drawing of 6 of the 7 ships depicting the Portuguese 1533 fleet to India during which the "Bom Jesus" didn't reach her final destination. The fleet was under the command of the master captains, Don Gonçalo Coutinho and Don João Pireyra. The "Bom Jesus" under the command of Francisco de Noronha disappeared "somewhere in the Cape of Good Hope" during a storm, just to be found 500 years later on Namibian soil. Francisco de Noronha was from noble descent and was the Knight of Santiago in the dynasty of Odemira. The drawing of the seven ships is from the book, O Livro das Armadas Memória das Armadas, and dates from the year 1566. The artist is unknown. Photo's and information is supplied by (Oranjemund online's favorite expert) Dr Alexandre Monteiro of Lisbon.
The painting of the "Bom Jesus" which was found in the diamond area of Oranjemund in April this year. It strikingly shows that the sails protruded just above the water, with a subscript "perdido" which means that it has been destroyed.
Thanks, Bertie.
Today I have found the probable cause for all those spanish coins to be there in the first place... :)
"Por El Rey
A dom António d'Atayde, comde da Castanheira, e veador de sua fazemda
Comde, amigo. Eu, el Rey, vos emvio muito saudar. Ey por bem que, dos cem mill cruzados que os mercadores d'este derradeiro comtrato sam obrigados pagar amtes da partida da armada da Imdia, lhes sejam tomados em pagamento vinte mill cruzados que tem em Sevilha, e que as letras d'elles se emtregem a Bertolameu Drago, cavalleyro de minha casa, pera os lla ir Requerer. Emcomendovos muito que mamdeis logo Requerer a Joham Gomez, thesoureiro d'esa casa, as ditas letras, e carregar sobre elle, em Recepta do quall as Recebera o dito Bertolameu Drago, e lhe dey para seu credito atee lhe emtregar o dito dinheiro; e isto mamdares ffazer logo, pera que se nam detenha.
Cosme Annes a fez, em Évora, aos xii dias de fevereiro de 1533.
J. Sam vinte mill cruzados os que ora am de dar em Sevilha.
Rey
Pera o cõde da Castanheira, sobre estes XX mill cruzados que os mercadores do cõtrato dã em Sevilha"
Thats what bable fish makes out of Alexandres post, read between the lines
In English
" For El Rey Dom António d' Atayde, comde of the Chestnut tree, and veador of its fazemda Comde, friend. I, el Rey, you emvio very to greet. Ey for good that, by one hundred mill crossed that the merchants of this last comtrato sam obliged to pay amtes of the departure of the armed of the Imdia, are taken them in payment twenty mill crossed that it has in Seville, and that the letters of elles if emtregem the Bertolameu Drago, cavalleyro of my house, pear lla to go To require. Emcomendovos much that mamdeis soon To require the Joham Go'mez, thesoureiro of esa house, the said letters, and to load on elle, in Receives stolen goods of quall Recebera the said Bertolameu Drago, and dey for its I credit atee it to it to emtregar the said money; e this mamdares to ffazer soon, pear that if nam withholds. Cosme made it to Annes, in Évora, to xi the days of February of 1533. J. Sam twenty mill crossed the ones that however am to give in Seville. Rey Pear cõde of the Chestnut tree, on these XX mill crossed that the merchants of the cõtrato of the one in Sevilha"
@ Georg Snr - I think Babel is speaking in tongues again! Can't follow the story.
@ Alexandre - Translation into English please (or just summary)?
All I can make out that 20 million was paid for/taken by merchants of Seville called Bartolameu Drago to get back stolen goods on 11 February 1533?
pls Help Alexandre!
This is a letter by King John III, written at Évora, on February the 13th, 1533, where he tells the Count of Castanheira, his "finantial minister" that he ordered one of his officers, Bartolomeu Drago, to go to Seville, Spain and, fetch there 20.000 cruzados in Spanish coins that were put forward by the private merchants in order to sail in the March 1533 fleet that sailed to India, wheres they would be used to buy pepper.
Thanx Alexandre - Pepper? Not a very romantic or exciting expedition, would have been better if they went to buy exotic pole dancers or .....
@Bertie... leave keith outta this!
Have it on good authority this was a clandestine illicit diamond buying operation that went awry!
Here we go again, There is currently a large presentation/meeting going on in the Rec Club with all the stakeholders from the Shipwreck Community. They paused for lunch and I got to see the agenda and a very nice booklet, which I hope to get my grubby paws on to scan for you lot....
What I heard, Remember how that crowd from Luderitz were trying to get their fish flavoured hands on the wreck to put up at Luderitz, well according to well informed sources, the minister reckons the wreck Museum will be built at Oranjemund, I also noticed that in the booklet, the wreck is referred to as the "Oranjemund" wreck....
It really is a most excellent booklet with reference to the entire project and documents the exact weight and quantity of items found...
Lets see what I can find....
That is good news for O-mund
That's great, hope for the best. Thanx Mike! daman
Be nice if this is finalized & helps allow access for genuine tourists.
I believe that the De Beers Chairmans fund will build a museum in Oranjemund for the artifacts and the shipwreck so it will stay in our beautifull little town and the tourist can come and see it in all its glory. it will not go to spain or portugal and will stay where it was found in Namibia. So there is a G-D after all. So De Beers has come through for us all!
Any idea as to a time line when this will happen or is it dependant on a reversal of the current economic climate?
Nam Touristic Magazine
Ship wreck O-mund
http://www.az.com.na/tourismus/reiseberichte/das-schatzschiff-von-oranjemund-ein-echter-global-player-auf-der-schwelle-vom-mittelalter-zur-neuzeit.81711.php
Again that darn language.. :)
BTW, National Geographic will run a piece on this in November, this year.
Hi Alexandre, long time no see! Maybe Georg can throw in a translation? Quite a long article...
He he he Bertie
Use a translation programm in Firefox
If not i do it with a program but it will be bad english
To fully translate is quite a job LOL
Hi Alexandre' Welcome back, thanks for that bit of info..... I will see if I can order a few copies for the shop...if we are still all here.....
Ok.... Let's light the fire a wee bit....
So our old friends, the Professional Portuguese Shipwreck Archaeologists, Francisco Alves and his sidekick Miquel (spelling) have returned to oranjemund to continue their research, they are here for a month and are currently examining parts of the wooden structure of the wreck in an undisclosed location in Oranjemund....
I was given a piece of newspaper where the namibian Minister of finance allocated just over 5 Million Namibian Dollars for the Shipwreck...(will post the article soon)
Hey Alexandre' where are you?, you are meant to be our man in Europe..
woo_hoo :wow1:
Francisco and Miquel hosted a farewell braai on thursday night for a few of us.... considering it was a wet mist night in Oranjemund, it was very pleasant next to the roaring fire. They left yesterday morning. Francisco reckons they should be returning early next year to give a workshop...... He also showed me all the work that they had done, rolls and rolls of transparencies which the team had copies of each of the timber beams..... all this stays in Namibia and they will take a digitized copy back to Europe....
As slowly as government moves... there is still no movement on the potential tourist attraction of a shipwreck museum in Oranjemund......
You dit not expect anything else ???? 164
Or dit you ???? LOL
Ja, but, I do believe the German Government is involved in the financing of the project....
So Georg, you and Jnr through your taxes are paying for it.... Er, can you get a move on and pay your taxes?
image201
laughpoint ha ha
Hi All:
I've been 'lurking' and following your coverage of the shipwreck. Yours has been the most complete record anywhere. The pictures and expert opinion have been great!
I decided yo sign up in order to tell you that I just received my National Georaphic magazine with the following article...
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/10/shipwreck/smith-text/2
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/10/shipwreck/toensing-photography
Great to see some of your posters quoted.
The National Geographic article is pretty superficial so I'll be watching here for more detailed updates.
Keep up the good work!!!
Regards from Canada,
Bob Edwards
Hi Bob, welcome to the Oranjemund family! Thanks to Mike who created this baby (site), and all the info he gathered through the Oranjemund family and friends.
Thanx for the link to the article, will definitely check it out.
msn emoticon (9)
Yes! Bob, got your email this morning, was gonna reply.....thanks for informing us about the link. We hope to have more info at a later stage about the wreck museum that has to be built..... watch this space.....
From Today;s Republikein"
"Skatskip onthul geheime
DIE eerste Europeërs wat hulle in Namibië gevestig het, was waarskynlik nie Duitse sendelinge nie, maar sowat 300 Portugese matrose wat in 1533 'n ramp op see naby Oranjemund oorleef het.
Die moontlikheid dat die bemanning van die Portugese handelsvaartuig, die São João (Bom Jesus), opgeneem is in die San-gemeenskappe van die Suide nadat hul skip vergaan het, is deel van 'n spesiale verslag oor die Oranjemund skatskip wat in die Oktober 2009 uitgawe van die gesaghebbende National Geographic Magazine verskyn.
In dié berig deur Roff Smith word ook bevestig dat die 500 jaar oue skeepswrak met sy waardevolle vrag van goud, silwer, koper en ivoor wat verlede jaar in die Sperrgebiet ontdek is, wel die São João (Bom Jesus) van kaptein Dom Francisco de Noronha is.
National Geographic haal die Portugese geskiedkundige en mariene argeoloog, dr. Alexandre Monteiro, aan wat sedert sy besoeke verlede jaar aan Namibië met uitgebreide navorsing besig is oor die skeepswrak.
Die skeepswrak is op 1 April verlede jaar in die myngebied ontdek en word as die waardevolste, oudste en rykste vonds uit die era van die Portugese ontdekkingsvaarte aan die kus van Afrika beskou.
'n Internasionale herwinningspan het sowat 2 500 goue, silwer en koper Portugese en Spaanse muntstukke van meer as 23 kilogram op die toneel gevind. Die São João het ook altesaam 2 288 koperballe van 17 ton, 523 tin-blokke van ses ton, 600 kilogram lood en 5,3 ton yster aan boord gehad toe dit gesink het.
Onder die wapentuig wat herwin is, tel 14 swaardlemme, 14 kanonlope, wat saam vyf ton weeg, en 39 kanonkoeëls. Elf stukke navigasietoerusting en 105 olifanttande van meer as twee ton, is ook gevind saam met 'n groot verskeidenheid eetgerei en persoonlike besittings van die bemanning wat mediese toerusting en klerasie insluit.
Die identifisering van die skeepswrak is volgens National Geographic aansienlik bemoeilik nadat 'n aardbewing, tsoenami en brand in November 1755 die Casa da India, die gebou in Lissabon waar alle kaarte en skeepsvaartrekords gehuisves was, verwoes het.
Volgens dr. Monteiro moes hy staatmaak op nuusbrokkies oor die vroeë geskiedenis wat wydverspreid in verskeie biblioteke en argiewe te vinde is. Een daarvan is die Relaçŏes das Armadas oor die Portugese ontdekkingsvaarte.
Tussen 1525 en 1600 het altesaam 21 Portugese skepe onderweg na Indië vergaan. Die berig haal ook 'n brief aan wat 13 Februarie 1533 gedateer is oor koning Joao van Portugal se ooreenkoms met 'n Spaanse konsortium van sakemanne om die 1533-vloot te finansier.
Dié vloot het Lissabon op 7 Maart 1533 verlaat onderweg na Indië, maar is kort ná hul vertrek in 'n storm uitmekaar gedryf en die Bom Jesus het iewers aan die Kaapse kus vergaan.
Indien die skip hom steeds in 'n storm op see bevind het toe dit sowat 100 meter van die Namibiese kuslyn af teen rotse gebots het, sou niemand die ramp oorleef het nie. Indien die storm egter uitgewoed het en die skip koersloos op die see gedobber het tot by sy laaste rusplek, sou die volle bemanning van 300 oorleef het. Argeoloë is dit nou egter eens, luidens die berig, dat die meeste van die bemanning, indien nie almal nie, wel oorleef het.
Met vars water uit die Oranjerivier baie naby en voldoende seekos beskikbaar, glo hierdie mense dat die bemanning die elemente sou kon trotseer.
In daardie jare het groepe boesmans uit die binneland gedurende die wintermaande gereeld die kuslyn besoek op soek na kos en die moontlikheid bestaan selfs dat die oorlewendes hulle by hierdie groepe aangesluit het.
"'n Fris Portugese heer kon ewenwel beskou word as 'n aantreklike toekomstige skoonseun," lui die National Geographic berig. "
I guess a different take on the tale from Christo......
LINK:http://www.republikein.com.na/politiek-en-nasionale/skatskip-onthul-geheime.94258.php
Mike this makes good reading, has anyone thought of tracking down decendants of the sailors in Portugal and say Spain. Because they could check their DNA with that on the local San communities in Namibia and see if there were any match / markers to indicate that the sailers actually survived and were taken up in these tribes.
Just a question but the answers would be interesting & could be very revealing ?
That would be very interesting to find out..... however when I spoke to a few of the Portuguese marine archaeologists about this part of the story, they all reckoned in all probability they shipwrecked folk would have walked NOrth towards Angola, where they knew they would find other Portuguese folk.... but then if they knew the Orange river was the only water source along the coast............ one never knows....
are-you-there
In todays Namibian Newspaper, an article relating to the National Geographic article.....
LINK: http://www.namibian.com.na/news/full-story/archive/2009/october/article/diamond-coast-shipwreck-gets-spot-in-national-geographic/
You read it here first , about 2 weeks back......
yes1
Hi all:
Anything new happening regarding the wreck?
Regards,
Bob Edwards
Hi Scouter Bob, nope all is quite on our wreck, what I did hear yesterday from a prominent politician was that the idea of using an old workshop up at Uubvley ( A huge mining workshop complex about 40km north of Oranjemund) .. as a temporary musuem..... I wonder what happened to all the promises that the other prominent politicians told us about....? Germans wanting to build a state of the art palce and all....
Hi Again:
I'm still trying to follow ship wreck news but everything has gone dark.
Is there anything in scholarly journals.
Alexandre... if you're still interested, surely there is some study of this amazing historical resource.
Regards,
Bob Edwards
This link is to a pdf document, it is by far the most comprehensive document that I have read so far on the shipwreck and well worth the download.....
LINK: http://www.igespar.pt/media/uploads/dans/TheOranjemundShipwreck.pdf