Ship Wreck

[Michael Alexander]

Ha! you just managed to escape that one...... Oh! Well, next time....

[Alexandre]

It sad when you hear the professional undersea archeaologists discussing with passion the historical importance of this wreck, not one of them that I have spoken to , are interested in shiney bright coins or the value of the loot, but rather the value in the rotten timbers themselves....

Hey, we are interested in everything! That's the beauty of your wreck, it is an very complete assemblage of an outgoing cargo to India, something that is a first worldwide.

Let me share with you some of my research so far. When Francisco showed me the photos he took in Namibia, the
"trident-like" mark on one of those copper ingots rang a bell. Then I figured it out: I had seen it before on the International Journal of Nautical Archaeology, edition of 1986, where Blake and Green describe a mid-16th century
portuguese wreck salvaged by treasure hunters in the Seychelles, although they did not arrive at a conclusion to what that mark meant

If only we could find the foundry/owner that produced those marks (that is, if they were indeed maker or ownership marks and not some signs related to the weight of the ingot or it's copper content) and the time frame they were produced we then could both date the Oranjemund wreck and the Seychelles one with greater accuracy.

I conducted a little more research and found out that that mark belongs to the Fugger's, the most proeminent family of banker (they financed the Pope and several european kings in the whole 16th century) and, surprise, the family is still active today and got a whole archive sitting in Germany!

http://www.fugger.de/de/l2_fuggerarchiv.htm

I contacted the archive and got a very positive response one week later. They were thrilled to hear abou this find (at least, that's what I could make for their reply - I had three years of German in high school and I forgot almost all of it - it's your turn, Georg :)

"Sehr geehrter Herr Monteiro,

vielen Dank für diese Überraschung! Es handelt sich eindeutig um das
Handelszeichen der Firma Fugger.
Ich werde Ihnen ausführlicher antworten, sobald ich wegen Baumaßnahmen
dazu komme. Entschuldigen Sie, daß ich trotz der Bedeutung dieses Fundes
so knapp antworte.
Mit guten Wünschen
Franz Karg
Fugger-Archiv"

Anyhow, a visit to the Fugger archive, in Germany, might shed some light to this cargo in particular, maybe a year for production/sale - and again, what we have here is a clear connection with Portugal, through it's Antwerp trading post.
Since copper stopped to be traded in bullion form from the mid-16th century onwards, I am still sticking to early 16th century date for the loss - 1526 til 1538 if we bring the 10 cruzados coins into the equation.

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

Hi Alexandre
That adds to the puzzle and seems to confirm tha dating
I am sure you can communicate in english with the Fugger archive officials

Here my rough translation of the answer from Fugger

Dear Mr. Monteiro,
thank you for this surprise!
It is clearly the trade mark of the Fugger company .
I will answer in more detail you, as soon as I come to it, we have construction measures at the moment.
Excuse the short answer despite theimportance of this find.
Reagrds
Franz meager Fugger Archiv"

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

An article in the AZ today

http://www.az.com.na/lokales/ausgrabungen-gehen-weiter.72841.php

[Alexandre]

Hi Alexandre
That adds to the puzzle and seems to confirm tha dating
I am sure you can communicate in english with the Fugger archive officials

Hi Georg, thanks for the translation! And I did wrote them in English - they, however, replied in German.. :)

[Michael Alexander]

I heard this at the tea party I went to on Sunday.....it seems that Andrew Darne actually picked up a wooden mast of sorts way back in September last year....being the avid sailor that he is, it caught his eye.....this was found at U105, way before the wreck was found in April....  I caught up with him today in the shop to ask if this was true, to which he replied in the affirmative....adding that there were other smaller bits and pieces of wood, leather and even what appeared to be bones... anyhow, he reckons by now, that area is underwater again or the ground is now part of the seawall..... he reckons he could have kicked himself for not getting hold of old Bob Burrell at the time....... but this makes interesting gossip.....

The mast is now with the rest of the wreck collection..... this also begs the question, if one would credit ol' Andrew with part of the find...

One also wonders how many other artifacts have gone through the plants and landed up in pieces on the mine dumps...

We are indeed living in interesting times....

[Bertie Horak]

Maybe Alexandre can help with this.  I know that coins have been found on the west coast of Namibia in the past, including Spanish Reale's like the ones on these pictures.  I know some of them might be too young to be part of the wreck, but the other seems to be in the same time frame.

[Michael Alexander]

Heard from a reliable source that local, national and foreign media will be arriving in our little town on Sunday and Monday for a tour and briefing of the Shipwreck area.... This is gonna get interesting....... and off course the question which was discussed earlier on this forum..... What about the 2nd wreck...... SOmebody phone Jim Murray.....   

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

@ Bertie about the coins

This may interest you

Philp´s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Spain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_IV_of_Spain

Coins

http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/numismatics/spain/Spain.htm

[Bertie Horak]

@ Daddy Georg - Thanks for the info, will have a look tonight after work!  Keep well, we miss you when you're quiet!

[Alexandre]

Maybe Alexandre can help with this.  I know that coins have been found on the west coast of Namibia in the past, including Spanish Reale's like the ones on these pictures.  I know some of them might be too young to be part of the wreck, but the other seems to be in the same time frame.

Hi Bertie, I am no coin expert but one tell tale sign with those coins is that they have been milled and not stamped. Early coins (that is, ealier than the 18th century, generally) were stamped with a and were cut from a rod of metal, sometimes with scissors (they are known as "cobs"). If you look closely, they have a serrated rim, too - this was done to prevent people from "shaving" the coin, effectively removing some slivers of gold or silver. After all, at that time, coins had intrinsic value it's weight of the metal.

Anyhow, I am guessing that they are all from that period (1744, as stamped on the two 8 reales coins) since, on the first one, the 4 reales coin, the name of the king is Philip V - he ruled from 1700-1746. I am also guessing that those coins are coming from that wreck we talked about here, on this thread, some pages ago - "in 1964, a group of scientists from the U.S. were doing a diamond prospecting survey near the Skeleton Coast of Namibia. While they were on the beach they began finding hundreds of silver coins. Most of them were Dutch VOC coins with some scatterings of Spanish Pieces of Eight. The coins varied in dates from 1744 to 1746. In the sea the scientists spotted a ballast pile and several bronze cannons. They even filmed the event on 16mm filmcamera and later had it edited onto video. Copies of this film are very rare and hard to find. The shipwreck from which the coins and cannons must come from is believed to be the VLISSINGEN. Travelling from Holland to India via the Cape, she ran aground around Meob (halfway between Luederitz and Walvis Bay) at the Namibian coast in 1747."

[Bertie Horak]

@ Alexandre - Wow, thank you for responding!  Very informative and interesting.  It's amazing to think those coins survived the elements for more than 250 years! 
I wonder how many ancient shipwrecks line our shores without us knowing about it, and the possibility of losing all the facts & history and evidence that goes with it - sad!
Will do a bit more searching on the WWW.

[Gordon Brown]

Quite a few old coins found on the beach at Meob Bay by Ronnie Dyason and others who fished there in the 60s and 70s. Also found a few in G Area whilst working on screening plant. Dated 1730, they had a pic of a rider on a horse on one side with a sword in his raised hand.On the other side is a coat of arms with standing lions on either side and with one in the centre of the shield. Interesting times for shipwrecks.

[Alexandre]

Quite a few old coins found on the beach at Meob Bay by Ronnie Dyason and others who fished there in the 60s and 70s. Also found a few in G Area whilst working on screening plant. Dated 1730, they had a pic of a rider on a horse on one side with a sword in his raised hand.On the other side is a coat of arms with standing lions on either side and with one in the centre of the shield. Interesting times for shipwrecks.

Something like this Gelderland (Netherlands) silver ducatoon from the wreck of the Vliegen Hart (1735)?

[Gordon Brown]

Exactly the same, even the writing.