Zimbabwe.....

[SandyB]

 

[Cherry (Alcock)]

So much for Mbeki's quite diplomacy - hasn't workwd nor does it help when an idiot like Aziz Pahad slams the media for criticising the fact that the presidential election stas haven't been released - moron!

[georg ruf jr.]

You're directly affested by the going ons Richard. At least seen from Europe. So I understand your oppinion.
What should the west do? Interfeering in forign countries meens you're interfeering. Whom will you really be helping? You'll have critisism in your country, because you have (obvious in a democracy) so many different oppinions:
1. Everybody should stick his nose into his own buiseness.
2. We have enough problems ourselves.
3. Who takes over the costs?
4. The guys never learn even if we help....
Then the contraversa  in the country your supposed to be "helping". Afghanistan, Iraque, Isreal and Palastine ect...
No matter what the man on the street says (west) decisions are always made by the bigheads. And these decisions are made to make sure the own interests are being satisfied. oil,uranium, gold ect   stratigic situation ect
I believe, we have to see everything as a whole. We are all responsable. My high standerd of living has something to do with poverty, war etc in the third world. But what would realy help? Bombs? Another Korea, Vietnam, Iraque .....
What's your idea Richard?

[Richard Opperman]

We are nt directly affected - but this does not mean we should keep quiet - more voices bring change!!

Zimbabwe is not a democracy - the country is run by a politburo which is a communist system!

My argument is this that the West must put a lot more pressure on mad Bod and his henchmen than they are doing at present. Restrict his movements even more - let him suffer like his people are - ban all Zimbabwean aircraft from flying North and landing in the West - not happening at the moment.

South Africa is not innocent when it comes to putting pressure on mad Bob and his cronies. Our quiet diplomacy is not working! As Cherry mentioned above our idiotic vice foreign minister Aziz Pahad has now gone and done a nutter by saying the media is over reacting - he says that Zimbabwe has a logistical problem getting the ballot papers to the ZEC - I wonder what would have happened if mad Bob had won? It looks as though mad Bob has had a logistical problem for the last 28 years!

Yes the west must get involved in other peoples business if their are human lives at risk!
You cannot put a cost to a human life!

I agree, do not get involved with militarily might - it never works and countries who think they can still control a foreign country with a military still have not learnt by history - but put extreme pressure on mad Bob and his cronies and hurt them where it hurts most in their pockets!

Say no more.
Richard 

[georg ruf jr.]

I was looking foward to your reply Richard.
Now your opinion is clearer to me. I was worried you were thinking of millitary "aid". What still irritates me is the expectation toward the "west". That's what I meant with "you are directly affected". I don't mean you as a person. It's Zimbabwes surroundings... SA is part of it.
These guys call themselves communists. Doesn't communism have something to do with community. This is a form of capitilism we had in Europe when all countries still had kings. Everything has been given new names.
I'm prepared to learn Richard. I'm greatfull for all the information and opininon I can get from all of you.
Georg

[SandyB]

Well put Richard , of  the same  opinion .. America made that mistake with their " liberation" of Iraq, sure they got rid  of  an  evil  despot but  there  are  so  many factions and religious  zealots  around that  they  just  take  advantage of  the  situation  when  the  repression  is  gone  and  scramble  for  their  piece of the power , its indeed  sad .... and  here in SA we  have   the  comedy of  our  wise leader  Thabob Mugabeki ( i'm sure  he  actually  shit  scared of  uncle Bob ) saying  just  leave  it  we cannot  interfere ( yet  they  pleaded  to  the  world to  interefere  against  the previous  regime ) .. NO! the more  voices   and the more  action  taken  of  a  different kind re Richards posting  can  help  amke  the  difference .. Injustice  is  injustice   and what  mad Bob has  done  is  on  par  with  apartheid regimes  excess ....
again  the  words .. " Oh  what a  circus "

[georg ruf jr.]

To See sometimes requires that you believe

Is that new Sandy. Hadn't noticed it yet. Isn't that dangerous?
Isn't Bob wanting everybody to believe to they can "see"?

[SandyB]

@ Jnr .. it  depends what you  wnat  to  see  , truth or  untruth , to  question .. but  also  to  believe .. it  has  served  me  well in  my  lifespan .. Its  actually part  of  a  saying   that  was  " seeing  is  believing  but  sometimes  to  see  requires  that  you  believe ' nothing  dangerous  unless  one  is  a brain  dead moron .. How  do  you think  major  inventions  came to  the  fore ?  how  good  thinking  people  have  helped  shape  history .. they  believed  and  were in  ways  unstoppable ...
Anyhow  i  been  having  a  bit of  fun  .. that song  from   The  stage  show  turned  movie   Evita  ' Oh  what  a  circus " has  been  rattling  around  in  my  head and  I  decided to  change words of  so  far  the  first  two  verses  to  fit in  with  the  music  and  keeping  some of  the  phrases  intact  I  supply  the  edited  zimbabwe  version  in  blue  and the  original in  black   best  to  first  listen  to  the  music and  then  sing  the  song  .. Have  fun all !!  My  bit  of  mischief  for  the  day ............

Oh what a circus, oh what a show
Zimbabwe  has gone to town
To  vote  out  a despot called  mad Uncle  Bob
Worlds  gone all crazy
allowing  things  to  drag  on so  long
and  so  failing  to  put  all of the misery right

Oh what an exit, that  he  should  have
Shackled  and  shamed  and  chased like  a  dog
Instead he  demands  another  recount
It's quite a messup
No good for the country in so  many ways
moving  to  the  back  page of all the world's papers today

The original
Oh what a circus, oh what a show
Argentina has gone to town
Over the death of an actress called Eva Peron
We've all gone crazy
Mourning all day and mourning all night
Falling over ourselves to get all of the misery right

Oh what an exit, that's how to go
When they're ringing your curtain down
Demand to be buried like Eva Peron
It's quite a sunset
And good for the country in a roundabout way
We've made the front page of all the world's papers today

[georg ruf jr.]

I'm sure I understood the way you meant it. I was just wondering how things could be misunderstood.

[SandyB]

Things misunderstood ? easy .. if  one  does not  step back , put oneself in  the other  persons shoes , go  into  ones  heart , question  do my thoughts or actions have the potential to hurt or cause damage ??  Oh damm its all so  difficult at times , and yes the world is so full of what is right and wrong , I just try to keep to  the simple tenet again of  try to  think  no  harm and  try  to do no  harm  .. also have  fun  and  do not  be oversenstive cos if  you  dont the worries of  the  universe will surely  swamp  you ..
But  I  remain  with  the  believe in  yourself  and to  see  sometimes require that  you  believe ...

[georg ruf jr.]

There is something I ofen experience at work. We are a team of 5 qualified teachers/trainers specialised on working in a psychiatry. Now we all seem to have the same educational background, as we all had to pass the same exams. If we discus things concerning our concept it's so hard getting a point of agreement. Everybody uses the same words and language and we seem to mean different things.
So if people wih the same educational backgroundcan't find a point of agreement (of course we do a some point, just an eg.) how shall people over nations and different cultures, languages do so?
Sounds very pesimistic. But I'm just trying to be realistic about the way things go on in the world.
You once mentioned (think it was the text of a song) that things start of in my person. Then goes over my relationships, family ect.

[SandyB]

That is what  makes  life  interesting ...  Imagine all  having  exactly the same viewpoint ??   Boooring ...

[georg ruf jr.]

I was refering to our topic further up.

[Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee)]

Facts are facts - positives, negatives - live by example, word your inner feelings, voice the feelings of the masses, critisize the negatives, inspirate the positive -  this can go on forever

fact is still - the heeldogs of Mugabe has yet again bit, by instigation of their master, into the flesh of the white farmers who are still there.  Reversed racisim due to what was done to Rhodesians more than 30 years ago?  I cannot believe that  -  the atrosities bieng commited by Mogabe currently outweighs the wrongs of the past by far.  This is pure hate spired on by the lust for power.

Should a new government come to rule, is it going to be better?  We don't know - but I have a gut feeling that each and every leader is only seeking the support of the masses for his own purpose and not for patriotic reason or for interest of the people.  The only thing they aim to get is rich!  And this counts for every leader of every country around the world!  Politics is the biggest get rich the nasty, but easy way scheme you can find (and second to that is the religion thing  -  Jimmy Swaggart etc, but that's another topic).

[georg ruf jr.]

Your question is, will it get better. No, it can't.
Every nation gets the government it deserves. Things are alwyyxs in a process. The point at which Zimbabwians are is far away from getting a better government.
So I'm coming back to what I was writing before. It's not just a matter of the others (west) doing something. If the people directly involved don't change their attitude, nothing will change.
SA is a good exsample it seems. You talk of reversed rasicm. Is it realy reversed? If whites were in a better position in timesb of apardheit doesn't meen blacks weren't racists. The only thing that has reversed is the position. Whites may have lived racism different to the way blacks do now, but that's not the point.
So everybody is in this process.
We had/have the same thing here with Jews, Gipseys, Jehowa Wittnesses, Gay.... You name it. That's our process. Learning to understand how to accept things that are different to mine. In the end we see everybody is only ....
"Waiting For The Sun" Jim Morrison.