Ship Wreck

[Michael Alexander]

Hey, David Hughes.,... back with us again....  Somebody said that there was a massive rock against the wreck.... as if the ship had smashed into it and sand...remember that this spot is actually below sea level...... perhaps a storm.... in the darkness....lost there way....crunch..... it would have gone down quickly with all that weight on...... man...if only we knew.....

[Alexandre]

Hello all. I am afraid I am not an Oranjemunder, but I am a Portuguese underwater archaeologist... :)

That gold coin, the one with the latin inscription "In Hoc Signo Vinces" (with this sign we win) is Portuguese 10 cruzados coin from King João III (first stamped October 1525). If that gold coin is indeed from that wreck (and a highly hypothetical contamination from another hypothetical wreck in the vicinity can be discarded) then the "terminus post quem" date for the loss of this ship would be October 1525 - it could not have wrecked earlier than this.

It is my educated opinion, based on whatever photographs and information have leaked out, that this site this definitely has the signature of a Portuguese ship, taking into account the geography and the guessed time period (first half of the 16th century?)- the treaties of Alcacovas (1479) and Tordesilhas (1494) as well as the Papal bules of Inter Caetera I, Eximia Devotiones, Inter Caetera II and Dudum Siquidem (1493) are all in favour of this hypothesis.

That gold coin (a "Portuguese", heavier and purer in gold than anything else before, struck between 1495 and 1538 only by two kings, Manuel I and João III, with the gold recently gained via their access to the subsaharian gold routes) was the favourite means of payment for the Indian pepper.

The copper ingots were there for the same reason: imported into Portugal free of tax by Holy Roman Empire bankers, such as the Fuggers and the Welsers, they were also used to buy pepper. Remember that, unlike the Spanish that conquered and populated Central and South America, the Portuguese only fought now and then and always to conquer a foothold into the Asian markets – they went there, all right, but they still had to buy the stuff, it was not theirs for the taking.

So, this must have been a ship going to India to trade there, not a returning ship.

From the Portuguese side, I am very happy that these artifacts belong now to the Namibian people - as part of Humanity's cultural heritage, I am pretty certain these remains will be studied in depth. After all, despite all our maritime tradition, there's not a single Portuguese ship from this period that has been archaeologicaly studied.

I sure hope the archaeologists involved, De Beers and the Nabimian Cultural Authorities can be the first ones the shed some light on this matter.

But here, in Portugal, I am burning with a lot of factual questions... are there any inscriptions on the cannons? I saw some ship timbers? How much survives of the ship itself? That wood and the information it carries is more precious to us than the gold...

[georg ruf jr.]

Very interesting facts and conclusion Alexandre. Thank you!

[Alexandre]

Well... it's just a theory. One cannot do archaeology by proxy, without being on site... ;)

But it's a start. It would help to see what is the latest coin present, so we could start rummaging through the archives here and name that wreck.

[Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee)]

@ Alexandre  -  it would be great if you could stay active on this forum and give feedback on the progress as you perceive it from where you are.  I truly hope that you are able to gather more detailed information in order for you to study the history of the wreck to sort of aprox the date as close as possible.  It would be a true treasure if you will be able to actually name the ship in the end.  I do presume that logs dating as far back as the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries still do exist somewhere in archives and museums?

Thank you so much for your input and the info thus far.  I think most of us appreciate it very deeply. 

[Michael Alexander]

Alexandre', welcome, great experience.....  Loved your post.... As you know the big debate, was the boat on it's wasy south or North? You say South to trade.....however how would one explain the Elephant tusks? Where did they come from...?

On another point, I was talking to Jim Murray..... if you know his history, while up at Ebay, they were involved in Diving as part of their work for the mine. It turns out that they found quite a bit of heavy Spanish/Portuguese coins there also... they had constructed a diving platform for various purposes. They applied to the GM of the time, Mr Develin if they could dive for the wreck, which they felt sure had to be in the area...Mr Devlin told them ...under no circumstances would the mine allow that.... he was sure that they would have found it..... Thats wreck ....

Now he tells of another story, which my father also heard about from some old timers when he got here in 72. The Caravelle in the desert.... a bush pilot, I mentioned this story earlier, saw the wooden structure of a Caravelle about 70 m inland from the sea, half covered in the Dunes.....  this wreck is more towards the Northern areas of the mine...but nobody ever found it.... But the old timers know it's there/.....

One wonders how much of these wrecks are being destroyed due to the mining activities of the Offshore diamond boats sucking up the seabed.........

And  YEs! Alexandre' is right, the wreck itself is worth more than all the gold recovered... What about this theory.... the ship was not alone, but maybe a fleet of 3 boats.... a great storm in the dark, seperated them and spread the wrecks along the Sperrgebiedt coast.... wrecking them....and thus ..we have the 3 wrecks.... missing...until now.....

Alexandre' , was there ever any "fleet" going missing down the south coast of Africa?

[pam spackman]

I was telling hubby Keith about the treasure/shipwreck  and he told me he already knew something about it!!!!  Evidently when he started work in O/M in the early1970s at the old Central Fields near the Tank Farm, 2 of the guys he worked with Eddie Watson and Hennie Genade who were very keen Anglers,told Keith, The Angling Club Members had been finding coins on the beach for years!!!!!  Keith can't remember where this beach was, but he thinks it was where the Anglers use to go away for long weekends or more and there was the remnants of an old Whaling Station there.Keith says it's not mentioned where your wreck was found, but if it's not THERE then there's probably more than one wreck. P'raps some of the Anglers from "back in the  day!!"  might be able to supply more information.


Hey I'm getting the hang of this!!!!!!              

[Michael Alexander]

Pam, thats a different wreck, and is much further up the coast past Luderitz at a place called Meob bay...the angling club still goes up there every month.The coins they find up there are from a later era and are mostly dutch East India coins and therefore from 1670- 1780..... the current wreck is over a hundred years older than the wreck at meob. In actual fact as far as I know, the wreck up at Meob, has never been found.... there are just stories of how every now and again, these coins wash up on the remote beach's.....in fact Adriaan brought us a few samples of those coins about 2 years back and they seemed to be made from a very corrosive substance and in poor shape.....

[bobbysmith]

welcome to the om family alexandre,great history lesson,please keep us posted on your wealth of knowledge,on a different track,i find it fascinating that the om web site has brought you and michael together and that you share his family surname with your first name,i hope we learn more.

[Alexandre]

Thank you all, for the warm welcoming. I am on a 36 hour sleepless night, so I am going to crash into bed right now. But I will return again, tomorrow, with another clue regarding the ivory trade and the Indian versus African elephant tusk feud... ;)

[Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee)]

Hope you have a good sleep  -  we novices need your brain to be sharp in this topic.  (LOL) 

You can answer this tomorrow:  is there a way to determine wether ivory that old had come from an African or an Indian elephant?  (Slap me silly  -  I presume there must be, for nowadays they match teeth to a specific person, so why not determine the ivory origin to a species.)  Did I just now answer my own question  -?

[SandyB]

Alexandre .. thanks for the input on the wreck so far ..  the whole  topic of this  is  fascinating  ..  keep us  posted ..

[Diana Rudd (Boehme)]

Great to have you on board Alexandre.....interesting stuff

[Michael Alexander]

The rumuor mill has started up again, I believe Dr.Nolie will be returning to town today. I als believe that their is a governement delegation en route for a site visit. Somebody told somebody, that some of the old guns are actually fossilised into the rock already and thus difficult to extract. Alexandre' how does this work? Has the wreck been lying long enough for this to happen?

[Michael Alexander]

ANother interesting email From Paul... nice to see that he has resurfaced.    . I include is email.

"Hi Michael,  I am now also back in civilization again and can pick-up on happenings. I see the news has now hit right across the world and even I am quoted from the time before the first coins were found. I am glad to see that Alexandre is now talking/taking part in/on the forum -he is probably one of the world's most knowledgable Maritime archaeologists - especially when it involves Portuguese Maritime history and archaeology.

Good to see the site is now covered up - lets hope it is in preparation for an joint international project!

For the men in black monitoring the site :-) -  the best people to involve in such a joint project would be the Instiute for Nautical Archaeology (INA) at Texac A&M University, USA. The person there who has worked and published in the field of Portuguese maritime archaeology is Prof Filipe Castro  fvcastro@tamu.edu . I would say he is THE person to have on such a project jointly with our own archaeologists. Website for his site is
http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/ . All the information and expertise is available - it is only for NAMDEB to ask!

It is also great to see that Dr Bruno Werz has joined the project - one of South Africa's best Maritime archaeologists!

I will now stop pestering you with e-mails and watch from the sidelines as the xperts take over.

Best regards

Paul Brandt
Centre for Portuguese Nautical Studies/Maritimeafrica.org"