Ship Wreck

[Alexandre]

I just looked at the revised map again

The red dot is the ship. I see on the Map a river, must be what Alexandre is been talking about

@ Alexandre, correct ????

Regards Georg 

Well, it might be... I am still looking for the earliest representation of the Oranje river.. I have one that dates from the 19th century (no clear date on it, but it must be from 1884 onwards).

[Alexandre]

Anyhow, as you can see here, Orannjemund is a bit to the north of C. Voltas.

[Alexandre]

This one from 1812...

[Alexandre]

A later one, no clues on this one.

[Michael Alexander]

Oranjemund always reminds me of the Village in Asterix and Obelix, where in a distant corner of the land, one small village still holds out......

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

@ Mike

Asterix and Obelix were there long before the Germans and they dropped a Menhir there

Those days the place was very green

[Dalene Steenkamp (Coetzee)]

Anyhow, as you can see here, Orannjemund is a bit to the north of C. Voltas.

On this map here Mc Dougalls Bay is named, where we know Alexander Bay to be.  Mc Dougalls Bay is a friction south of Port Nolloth.

Oranjemund is just north of the Orange river  -  therefore the name of the town  -  meaning  Mouth of the Orange river.

On this map you can more accuratley pinpoint the location of the wreck for us, Mike.


Georgswa  -  please get me pic of the statue of Dogmatix as well! 

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

@ Dalene

Dont know Dogmatix, do you mean Idefix ? The little dog of Asterix and Obelix ?

By the way, the menhir is in my hometown

Here the video

http://www.livevideo.com/video/AA91B4B9258E40DE8DBCEC8181235188/gollenstein-blieskastel.aspx?lastvcid=634296

Lets talk about that in another Topic if you want

[SandyB]

In the Sunday times .. an article on the shipwreck and how Nam gov is clamming up " while negotiations taking place "

[Michael Alexander]

Is that today Sandy?

@ Georg, thanks for that, I collect Asterix and Obelix Books..... have about 80% of them so far....

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

Also from the sunday times some weeks ago

subarqaz said at May 4 2008 5:19PM
Well, here's another theory from this Portuguese underwater archaeologist:

If that gold coin is indeed from that wreck (and a highly hypothetical contamination from another hypothetical wreck in the vicinity can be discarded) them the "terminus post quem" date for the loss of this ship would be October 1525 - it could not have wrecked earlier than this.

It is my educated opinion, based on whatever photographs and information have leaked out, that site this definitely has the signature of a Portuguese ship, taking into account the geography and the guessed time period (first half of the 16th century?)- the treaties of Alcacovas (1479) and Tordesilhas (1494) as well as the Papal bules of Inter Caetera I, Eximia Devotiones, Inter Caetera II and Dudum Siquidem (1493) are all in favour of this hypothesis.

That gold coin (a "Portuguese", a 10 cruzados coin, heavier and purer in gold than anything else before, struck after 1495 only by two kings, Manuel I and João III, based on the recently gain of access to the subsaharian gold routes) was the favourite means of payment for the Indian pepper.

The copper and tin ingots were there for the same reason: imported into Portugal free of tax by the Holy Roman Empire bankers, such as the Fuggers and the Welsers, they were also used to buy pepper. Remember that, unlike the Spanish that conquered and populated Central and South America, the Portuguese only fought now and then and always to conquer a foothold into the Asian markets – they went there, all right, but they still had to buy the stuff, it was not theirs for the taking.

So, this must have been a ship going to India to trade there, not a returning ship.

From the Portuguese side, I am very happy that these artifacts belong now to the Namibian people - as part of Humanity's cultural heritage, I am pretty certain these remains will be studied in depth. After all, despite all our maritime tradition, there's not a single Portuguese ship from this period that has been archaeologicaly studied. I sure hope the archaeologists involved, De Beers and the Nabimian Cultural Authorities can be the first ones the shed some light on this matter.

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

Is that today Sandy?

@ Georg, thanks for that, I collect Asterix and Obelix Books..... have about 80% of them so far....

I had a dream last night about a new issue, cant tell you what it was called LOL

Since i visited my hometown with the menhir, that goes through my mind......

[Alexandre]

In the Sunday times .. an article on the shipwreck and how Nam gov is clamming up " while negotiations taking place "

Here's the full article:

"Sunday Times of Johannesburg, 25 May 2008, By BOBBY JORDAN


Namibia clams up over 'delicate' treasure ship talks

The Namibian government has gagged senior mining and minerals personnel, banning them from talking about a shipwreck discovered in a restricted diamond mining zone.


Namibia and Portugal have held diplomatic talks over excavating the 16th century ship, believed to be Portuguese in origin, and considered to be the most significant maritime archaeological find in Southern Africa.

Portuguese Consul-General in South Africa, Dr Domingos Alvim, on Friday confirmed toplevel contact with the Namibian government to facilitate the speedy excavation of the shipwreck site in the Sperrgebiet, south of Luderitz. The Portuguese are eager to assist in the excavation to ensure the best possible recovery of historically valuable items, he said.

Two of the artefacts are believed to be valuable navigational tools called nautical astrolabes, of which there are only about 30 left in the world.

The wreck, about 25m long, was unearthed two months ago by Namdeb, a mining company jointly owned by De Beers and the Namibian government. Namdeb spokesman Ndeshi Hangula-Shikwambi said: "Namdeb is no longer allowed to do any communications. They (government) want to take charge."

There has been no shortage of speculation, however, with some experts saying the ship may have been part of a fleet commanded by Bartholomew Diaz, the first European to discover the Cape of Good Hope.

Subsequent reports suggest some gold coins found on the wreck were minted after 1525 and that the ship was more likely a Portuguese trading vessel on its way back from a colonial outpost on Africa's east coast.

George Shinyala, Namibian Mines and Energy spokesman, said: "The government has sent a team of experts to look at the shipwreck — a collaboration with our National Heritage Council. We are waiting for (their) report . . . Currently we don't have anything to tell."

Meanwhile, researchers all over the world are eagerly awaiting news. Senior curator at the world famous Maritime Museum in Lisbon, Bruno Goncalves Neves, said the wreck was of enormous significance, hence the delicate negotiations currently on the go. He said the museum would be delighted to receive any relics from the ship."




A few notes:

1) It does not make sense to have a ship coming in from Africa's East coast (Mozambique?), carrying all the gold onboard. This is a nau to India, going in, not coming from.

2) there are at least 88 marine astrolabes in the world, if I have my tally right, not counting with these two. If the date of the loss of this ship is right, this would then make these the oldest astrolabes to be recovered in the world (I think the oldest ones date to the 1550, from the Padre Island shipwrecks)

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

Thanks Alexandre

I think we have contributed a lot to those newspapers reports in our board

I see very often strange IPs reading in the board

We just have to wait and see.....

[Alexandre]

Thanks Alexandre

I think we have contributed a lot to those newspapers reports in our board

Well, the more fiction and lore we can dissipate, the better. Archaeology is about people, the ones from the past, that have produced the archaeological record and the ones from the present, that are curious about their ancestors and that should share whatever knowledge we gain from studying the past.

The problem is that, if everything is done in  a scientific way, we will only be getting the majority of all those answers in several years time.