Ship Wreck relevant

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

I will transfer some of the important posts to here.

The original is to confusing now on what is real and what is jokes

Please dont post here until all is in

Thanks Georg


All Pictures Copy Right

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

All Pictures Copy Right

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

All Pictures Copy Right

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

All photo's are copyrighted to their respective owners.

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

This is a summary to make it easy to follow                    All Pictures Copy Right

The old Posts remain.

This Topic is locked






Link: http://www.az.com.na/lokales/diamantsuche-gibt-and-schatz-and-frei.66182.php

Link: http://news.orf.at/?href=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.orf.at%2Fticker%2F288060.html

Link: http://lizzysmusings.blogspot.com:80/2008/05/treasure-ship-found-off-coast-of.html

Link: http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2315370,00.html

http://www.miningweekly.com/article.php?a_id=132428


http://www.oranjemundonline.com/Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1324.0;attach=5629



Ha... and another article just been emailed to me.... brief mention of the site...

"Sperrgebiet maak venster oop op nuwe skat


Dr. Dieter Noli, die argeoloog wat die skeepswrak bestudeer, tel die munte wat by die wrak gevind is.

DIE moontlikheid dat die skeepswrak wat aan die begin van April by Oranjemund ontdek is die van Diago Cão is, is gister deur kenners op die gebied van Portugese seevaart geuiter.

'n Skoen en ander versierings wat aan adellikes in Portugal verbind word en 'n been wat by die wrak ontdek is, hou die sleutel tot die raaisel van die skip wat volgens aanvanklike inligting deel kon wees van die karavele van die eerste Portugese seevaarders Cão, Vasco da Gama en Dias wat die kus van Afrika verken en die seeroete na die Ooste ontdek het.

Die vonds wat een van die belangrikste in die geskiedenis van Afrika en seevaart in sy geheel kan wees, is volgens aanvanklike berigte reeds op 1 April gemaak, maar is tot Woensdag onder die dekmantel gehou weens die sensitiewe aard daarvan.

Volgens 'n berig in die Sperrgebiet Gazette van 17 April 2008 het mnr. Bob Burrell, Namdeb se bestuurder van minerale hulpbronne, die wrak ontdek terwyl hy besig was met roetine inspeksies by Mynarea 1. Die wrak was aanvanklik sowat ses meter onder seëvlak voor die gebied waar dit gevind is, drooggelê is.

Die gebied wat sowat 12 km noord van die Oranjerivier geleë is, het na bewering 'n skat opgelewer van Spaanse en Portugese goue munte ter waarde van meer as US$2 miljoen, 58 olifanttande en 6 kanonne met 1 500 kg se koperballe wat as koeëls vir die kanonne gebruik is, pewter tafelware, wapens en navigasietoerusting.

Die skip wat na bewering as 'n handelskip diens gedoen het, was blykbaar onderweg na Indië of onderweg na sy tuisland toe dit aan die suidelike kus van Namibië in die moeilikheid geraak het. "Weens die groot hoeveelheid goue munte en ivoor wat by die wrak gevind is, kan ons nie sê of die skip onderweg na Indië was of reeds vandaar teruggekom het nie.

Die hoeveelheid munte dui aan dat hulle nog daarheen onderweg was, maar die ivoor wat gevind is, kan daarop dui dat die skip reeds vanuit die Ooste teruggekeer het," het mnr. Helifa Mbako, groepsbestuurder van buite aangeleenthede en korporatiewe kommunikasie by Namdeb, by navraag aan Republikein gesê. Kenners op die gebied van Portugese seevaart verskil van mekaar oor of die skip na die Ooste onderweg was en of dit reeds die terugtog na Portugal aangepak het.

Dr. Valerie Esterhuizen, verbonde aan die Sentrum vir Portugese Seevaartstudies, is van mening dat die skip steeds onderweg was na die Ooste. Sy skryf: "Omdat daar skynbaar geen Oosterse ware, soos onder andere porseleinskerwe, tussen die wrakstukke is nie, wil dit voorkom dat dit 'n uitvarende skip was." 'n Kenner in Portugal, kommandeur Malhao Pereira, voorheen verbonde aan die seevaarskool in Lissabon, is egter van mening dat die skip onderweg was na Portugal.


Dit is hoe die goue Spaanse munte lyk.

"Dit wil vir my voorkom of die skip op sy terugtog was, nie alleen weens die ligging daarvan nie, maar ook aangesien dit reeds 'gode' (die olifanttande) aan boord gehad het." Dr. Paul Brandt, 'n maritieme argeoloog ook van die Sentrum vir Portugese Seevaartstudies, wat in Pretoria gestasioneer is en aan 'n webwerf vir oud-Oranjemunders se kletskamer oor die skeepswrak deelgeneem het, is die kanonne wat gevind is dekgemonteerde draaikanonne wat tot in die 1500's veral op Portugese skepe gebruik is.

Hy bevestig ook in sy skrywe op die kletskamer dat die ivoor op die skip kan aandui dat dit reeds vanuit die Ooste op pad terug na sy tuisland was, maar sê ook dat die moontlikheid bestaan dat die skip 'n weskus slaweskip was wat die olifanttande in Luanda aan boord geneem het, 'n mening wat ook deur dr. Esterhuizen gelig is.

"Om die skip te identifiseer as komend uit Indië is dit nodig om die muntstukke, karneoolse krale en Chinese uitvoerporselein te sien. Die porseleinskerwe sal ons in staat stel om die skip binne 'n tydperk van 30 jaar te dateer," skryf dr. Brandt. Hy voeg ook by dat sou hy van die munte wat gevind is onder oë kon kry, hy 'n moontlike naam aan die gesonke skip sou kon heg.

"Die munte is die beste manier om die skip uit te ken. Dit kan aan jou die nasionaliteit, die naastenbye datum (die skip kon nie verlore gegaan het voor die datum van die laaste munte nie) gee. Die metaal – goud, silwer of brons, kan aan jou die geskiedenis van die roetes wat dit gevolg het gee, ensovoorts. Alles deel van die groot legkaart – opwindend!"

Die wrak word gereken as die oudste wat nog in Sub-Sahara Afrika ontdek is. "Die vonds is waarvoor ek al vir 20 jaar wag," het dr. Dieter Noli, die argeoloog wat die wrak bestudeer, gister in 'n onderhoud met Associated Press (AP) gesê.

Hy en sy kollega, dr. Bruno Werz, is tans besig met die inventering van die vonds en die doen van navorsing in Namibiese en Suid-Afrikaanse museums en biblioteke en sal binnekort na Portugal en Spanje vertrek, wie se skepe besonder aktief was in die tydperk waaruit hulle vermoed die wrak dateer. "Jy laat nie 'n skipper vry met 'n vrag so waardevol soos hierdie en hou nie rekord daarvan nie," het dr. Noli aan AP gesê. "

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

New Link i received from Switzerland

http://tagesschau.sf.tv/nachrichten/archiv/2008/05/02/vermischtes/wrack_mit_gold_schwertern_und_kanonen




An online Translation of the text not edited by me so beware of the english LOL

Wreck also gold, swords and cannons 500-jaehriger treasure before Namibia discovered with the diamond search before the coast of the South West African State of Namibia discovered geologist the wreck one approximately 500 years old treasure ship. On board are gold coins, ivory, swords and cannons. A part of the valuable freight was saved in the meantime. "the place of discovery was covered with a multiplicity at objects, among them six bronze cannons, tonnenweise copper, more than 50 elephant impact teeth, ess-Bestecke, navigational instruments, weapons as well as thousands Spanish and Portuguese gold coins, the 15 early in late 14. and. Century coined/shaped were ", said the speaker of the namibisch South African diamond company Namdeb, Hilifa Mbako. Discovery with diamond search The first remnants of the wreck had been discovered in April during the preparation of the sea-bottom for an exploration before the coast of the desert state. Cannon pipes and ingots were to light brought. The bronze cannons are Spanish origin and at the beginning 16. Century much spreads been. Zurzeit is examined in detail the wreck. "we found very valuable treasure articles. Everyone wants to now know, who on the ship was ", so Mbako further. Immense interest The vice-chairman of the Namibi monument advice said, the pieces of find belonged according to the namibischen law to the state. The wreck is not only of Namibia most important archaeological find of the century, but from "immense national and international interest". The governments of Portugal and Spain were informed about the find, with which it concerns according to first estimations the oldest ship wreck in black Africa. It could come from the time before the conquest of the continent by the Europeans. The coast before the earlier colony German southwest Africa, rich at diamonds, is considered than malicious and became in the past centuries the grave for ships of all kinds.

[Michael Alexander]

Here are some GoogleEarth References, please note that these are not up to date, as GoogleEarth does not have any current images, but they will give you an idea of the rough location.

[Michael Alexander]

This gets interesting now....rumours abound that this could be the watery grave of Diaz himself.. heres an article from the Mail & Guardian

"The final resting place of Portuguese explorer Bartolomeu Dias, who in 1488 was the first European to discover the Cape of Good Hope and open up the East Indian trade route, may have been found 500 years after his caravel disappeared in a storm off the south-west African coast in 1500.

Namibian diamond mining company Namdeb this week announced it had found a 500-year-old shipwreck in the so-called Sperrgebiet (forbidden territory) containing a vast treasure of Portuguese and Spanish coins dating back to the late 1400s, as well as tons of copper and more than 50 ivory tusks.

Company spokesperson Hilifa Mbako said the wreck was found by the company's chief geologist, Bob Burrell, on April 1 within Diamond Area 1 during routine mining operations along the southern Namibian coast.

Namdeb -- a 50-50 joint venture between the government of Namibia and international diamond giant De Beers -- controls the entire area between the mouth of the Orange River up to Luderitz, about 300km further north. Access to the area is strictly controlled under Namibian diamond mining laws.

Burrell was first alerted to the find by the discovery of copper ingots and the remains of three bronze cannons. All mining in the area was immediately halted, and in-house experts started examining the site, Mbako said.

Archaeologist Dr Dieter Noli, an expert on the Sperrgebiet, later identified the cannons as Spanish breach-loaders dating back to the 1500s. Namdeb, however, kept the discovery secret until this week, when it issued a press release. It has declined to name the specific location of the wreck.

"The site yielded a wealth of objects including six bronze cannons, several tons of copper, more than 50 elephant tusks, pewter tableware, navigational instruments, weapons and thousands of Spanish and Portuguese gold coins, minted in the late 1400s and early 1500s," Mbako said.

Other company sources said the ship's wreck included human remains that showed indications the passengers may have been royalty, raising the suggestion that it could be Dias's caravel, which went missing off the Cape of Good Hope in 1500 during a storm.

Dias was the first European navigator to sail around the Cape of Good Hope, in 1488, thereby opening the lucrative trading route with the Far East. He named the Cape "the Cape of Storms" (Cabo das Tormentas), but King John II of Portugal later renamed it Cabo de Boa Esperanca (Cape of Good Hope).

Mbako declined to speculate on the origins of the ship, but said the Portuguese government was alerted to the find and they expected a team of Portuguese archaeological experts to be dispatched to the site to further investigate the find. "The shipwreck holds more questions than answers," he said."

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

A more comprehensive report i found

http://www.derwesten.de/nachrichten/nachrichten/2008/5/4/news-43325038/detail.html

USA Paper

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-briefs3-2008may03,0,3126212.story

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

An interesting post from Portugal Mr Alexandre an underwater archaeologist

Quote

Hello all. I am afraid I am not an Oranjemunder, but I am a Portuguese underwater archaeologist... :)

That gold coin, the one with the latin inscription "In Hoc Signo Vinces" (with this sign we win) is Portuguese 10 cruzados coin from King João III (first stamped October 1525). If that gold coin is indeed from that wreck (and a highly hypothetical contamination from another hypothetical wreck in the vicinity can be discarded) then the "terminus post quem" date for the loss of this ship would be October 1525 - it could not have wrecked earlier than this.

It is my educated opinion, based on whatever photographs and information have leaked out, that this site this definitely has the signature of a Portuguese ship, taking into account the geography and the guessed time period (first half of the 16th century?)- the treaties of Alcacovas (1479) and Tordesilhas (1494) as well as the Papal bules of Inter Caetera I, Eximia Devotiones, Inter Caetera II and Dudum Siquidem (1493) are all in favour of this hypothesis.

That gold coin (a "Portuguese", heavier and purer in gold than anything else before, struck between 1495 and 1538 only by two kings, Manuel I and João III, with the gold recently gained via their access to the subsaharian gold routes) was the favourite means of payment for the Indian pepper.

The copper ingots were there for the same reason: imported into Portugal free of tax by Holy Roman Empire bankers, such as the Fuggers and the Welsers, they were also used to buy pepper. Remember that, unlike the Spanish that conquered and populated Central and South America, the Portuguese only fought now and then and always to conquer a foothold into the Asian markets – they went there, all right, but they still had to buy the stuff, it was not theirs for the taking.

So, this must have been a ship going to India to trade there, not a returning ship.

From the Portuguese side, I am very happy that these artifacts belong now to the Namibian people - as part of Humanity's cultural heritage, I am pretty certain these remains will be studied in depth. After all, despite all our maritime tradition, there's not a single Portuguese ship from this period that has been archaeologicaly studied.

I sure hope the archaeologists involved, De Beers and the Nabimian Cultural Authorities can be the first ones the shed some light on this matter.

But here, in Portugal, I am burning with a lot of factual questions... are there any inscriptions on the cannons? I saw some ship timbers? How much survives of the ship itself? That wood and the information it carries is more precious to us than the gold...

[Michael Alexander]

SOurce: THE NAMIBIAN (08 May 2008)

"Quest to solve treasure ship riddle begins
WERNER MENGES

THE discovery of a treasure-laden shipwreck, estimated to be around 500 years old, in Namdeb's Mining Area 1 near Oranjemund early last month is only the first chapter in what could turn into a long slog of archaeological detective work to unravel the secrets of an ill-fated pioneer of sea travel off the Southern African coast.

The easy part of working on an archaeological site like this is the digging up of the site and recovering relevant material from it, archaeologist Dieter Noli, who played a leading part in the first examination of the wreck site in April, told The Namibian in a telephonic interview from Cape Town yesterday.

The hard work is analysing what was found at the site, he said.

That is expected to be painstaking labour that could take months before it is even known what the real significance of the discovery is, he said.

He is convinced, though, that he and his colleagues who will be helping to study the wreck and its contents will eventually be able to find out whose ship this was and what business it was on when it came to an end on that barren stretch of Namibian coastline, Noli indicated.

"We have to piece together the puzzle.

It's a fascinating story," he said.

The discovery of the ship has been worldwide news, with Namdeb claiming in its announcement of the find last week that this may be the oldest sub-Saharan shipwreck ever discovered.

Noli, who has been a consultant for Namdeb on archaeological matters since 1996, said he was scheduled to return to Oranjemund yesterday to carry out further work at the site and on items that had been recovered from the site so far.

He will have to see that the material collected from the site is stored properly, photographed, cleaned, and that each item - including each of thousands of gold and silver coins - is recorded, Noli said.

The material collected from the site includes thousands of Portuguese and Spanish gold coins, Portuguese silver coins, bronze cannons, tons of copper ingots, more than 50 elephant tusks, pewter tableware and navigational instruments.

The wreck itself has been "extremely badly battered" by the sea, with little of the original structure of the ship left, Noli said.

The site near Oranjemund has in the meantime been covered with wet sand again.

The site is about six metres below sea level and is now protected by a huge sea wall constructed out of sand by Namdeb as part of its mining operations in the area.

Noli said the site contains a lot of metal, including iron concretion - formed when rusting iron combines with other matter to form a hard, concrete-like material - which can deteriorate fast when exposed to the air and oxygen after so long under the seabed.

He said covering up the wreck site is a way of preserving the site for future further examination.

ARCHAEO 'CRIME SCENE' "We're dealing with a crime story here.

The wreck is like a crime scene," Noli said.

Here, though, the role of detectives will be played by archaeologists who will have to rely on clues gathered at the scene as they set out on a quest to figure out the history and end of a ship that last sailed the seas half a millennium ago.

Examining historical records in an attempt to get clues about the origins of the ship will also form an extremely important part of the work that lies ahead, Noli said.

With it increasingly looking like the wreck is of Portuguese origin, the Portuguese government has already offered to assist in the study of the wreck and the efforts to identify the ship, Noli said.

He said the coins found at the site offer only part of the clues about the ship's origin.

An estimated 70 per cent of the gold coins recovered so far were Spanish, with the remaining 30 per cent Portuguese coins, he said.

All of the silver coins found at the site were Portuguese, he said, adding that in a situation like this, the "small change" that were used can say more than the larger denominations of money found.

Some of the Spanish coins were minted with depictions of the Spanish monarchs Ferdinand II and Isabella I, who ruled Spain in the late 1400s and early 1500s, on one side, while some of the Portuguese coins bear references to the Portuguese King John II, Noli said.

John, or João II, was on the Portuguese throne between 1481 and 1495.

Noli said in the late 1400s and early 1500s, the Portuguese were the main seafarers along this part of the African coast.

"It's looking more and more as if it's a Portuguese ship," he remarked.

When he first started working on the site in April, he was not expecting to find any money, Noli said.

That was because it appeared that the ship had been fully laden with cargo like copper and ivory.

As it is unlikely that a European ship would have been exporting ivory to Africa, the theory would then be that the ship had been heading back home when it came to its end, he said.

On the other hand, he added, the ship still had a lot of money on board - which would not have been expected either if it had just completed a trading trip, he indicated.

The ivory that was recovered may still provide key clues on the ship's movements.

It is possible to establish where the tusks came from - not only whether from African or Asian elephants, but also whether from a place like India or the west or east coasts of Africa, and even which parts of the coasts, Noli said.

He added that fragments of what appeared to be human bones had also been seen in the concretions at the site.

These were left intact at the site.

More material resembling bones was removed from the site, but will have to be studied further to determine whether it is of human origin, he said.

If it is found to be human remains, it would be treated with due respect and ultimately re-interred, he said.

The final intention of the study of the wreck is that all the material recovered from the site would remain in Namibia, as it belongs to the people of Namibia, Noli said.

According to Erica Ndalikokule, Acting Director of the National Heritage Council, all shipwrecks in Namibian waters or on the coast that are older than 35 years are classified as historic shipwrecks in terms of the National Heritage Act.

These wrecks, as well as artefacts recovered from them, belong to the State, according to the law."

[Michael Alexander]

From Todays Namibian, the bigger Men in Black are now in charge.... also note that this forum is mentioned....

"Govt takes over ancient shipwreck
JOHN GROBLER

THE Namibian Government has taken over responsibility for the excavation of the 500-year old shipwreck found at Oranjemund last month after the Office of the President was approached in this regard by the Portuguese government, The Namibian has established.

Namdeb spokesman Hilifa Mbako confirmed that three Ministers - Errki Nghimtina of Mines and Energy, Dr Abraham Iyambo of Fisheries and Marine Resources and Willem Konjore of the Ministry of Youth, National Service, Sport and Culture - flew to Oranjemund on Thursday to inspect the site.

He declined to give any further information, referring all queries to the Office of the President instead.

This office could not be reached for comment over the weekend.

Another well-placed source indicated that the Portuguese government had contacted President Hifikepunye Pohamba's office directly, which had led to him sending the ministerial delegation to Oranjemund.

"The Ministers have returned from their visit in Oranjemund with an order that nothing further should be said by anyone on the shipwreck until further notice," the source said.

Government has made it clear that it has now taken full charge of the matter, the source added.

In a written statement released to the media on Friday, Nghimtina confirmed the three Ministers' visit to the site of the discovery.

Nghimtina thanked Namdeb "for all the phenomenal work they have done in protecting the site where the wreck was found and providing security for the artefacts".

He added that "appropriate officials" from relevant Government departments, being archaeologists, the National Heritage Council and the National Museum of Namibia, "now need space and time to carry out vital analytical work to provide answers to the many questions that we have".

Because Government also needs to study all the information available at this stage to make an informed decision about the way forward, "there will be no further information or media comments on this matter - until further notice", Nghimtina stated.

Namdeb kept news of the sensational discovery secret for a month before announcing on April 30 to widespread international interest that they had found what is believed to be the oldest shipwreck discovered in sub-Saharan Africa.

The wreck was discovered by Namdeb geologist Bob Burrell, who came across copper ingots while excavating an ancient beach terrace in search of diamonds.

Mining in the area - which appeared to be below sea level and buried about six metres deep - was halted immediately and experts brought in to excavate the sensational find.

Further investigation brought to light brass swivel-cannons dating back 500 years, as well as a treasure hoard of Portuguese and Spanish gold and silver coins, 50 ivory tusks, pewter ware and ancient navigational equipment.

Under Namibian heritage laws, the wreck and its contents belong to the Namibian Government.

Some reports on an Oranjemund community online forum suggested that the gold alone was worth some US$2,2 million (about N$16 million).

The origin of the ship remains unclear, but Namdeb-retained archaeologist Dr Dieter Noli previously said the large amount of Portuguese silver found in the remains was significant.

Trade in ivory was at the time reserved for royalty, Noli said.

There is also intense speculation that the wreck might be one of four Portuguese royal caravels, one of which was captained by Portuguese explorer Bartolomeu Dias, which disappeared off the Cape of Good Hope in May 1500 in a storm.

Dias's caravel was part of a fleet of 13 ships that had sailed from Portugal on March 9 1500 under the command of Pedro Alvarez Cabral and got lost at sea before discovering Brazil by accident a month later.

The fleet was to establish trade with the Far East, after Arab traders there had previously rejected as inferior Portuguese goods offered by another Portuguese seafarer, Vasco da Gama, on his first visit there, one website dedicated to maritime history suggested.

The fleet, already depleted by half at that stage, then headed east for the Indies before disaster struck off the southern African coast in middle May, various websites indicated.

Dias, who in late December 1488 was blown past the Cape by another such storm, was presumed lost at sea on May 29, various websites indicated."

[georgswa (Georg Ruf) (RIP)]

Thanks Mike

The AZ also reports today

http://www.az.com.na/lokales/minister-besuchen-ausgrabung.66483.php

[Michael Alexander]

What does this statement mean.....? "The Ministers have returned from their visit in Oranjemund with an order that nothing further should be said by anyone on the shipwreck until further notice," the source said."


Is it just me..or are the men in black..... (carry on your answer in the other shipwreck topic ....)

[Michael Alexander]

The Following are from todays Observer, Once again,