Could this really be ??

[SandyB]

HEY  FOLKS  WE  HAVE  REALLY  LOST THE  THREAD ...  THE ORIGINAL  QUESTION  IS .. COULD  THIS  REALLY BE ?? AN ANSWER  WAS  ASKED  BY PUTTING IT  TO THE FORUM  HOPING OUR MEMBERS IN THE UK COULD CLARIFY .. WHAT  WE HAVE  IS  A LOT OF  DIFFERING THOUGHTS  , ANGLES OF APPROACH  AND
CONSPIRACY THEORIES   OR  TRUTHS   WHO  REALLY KNOWS ??
ME  JEWISH FRIENDS  AND A " DENIALIST " FRIEND   TRY TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND ..    NEVER MIND THE  " 6 MILLION " JEWS  THAT PART OF THE   THEORY BANDIED AROUND HERE  IS THAT THAT NUMBER IS  USED FOR  ULTERIOR MOTIVE , OK  SO  THEN , WHAT ABOUT THE POLES , THE  GYPSIES ,  ETC  ETC ??  I REPEAT THE ONE THREAD OF  MY  WORDS  FROM  THE  BEGINNING  OF  THIS  TOPIC ..

I have colleaugue at work  who denies it happened .. he  even has books that try to  disprove it ...I have told him  that  its irrelevant  if  one life  or  6 million lives  were lost  to  a  twisted ideology  ,, either way  its  sick ..

AND  YES FOLKS  THE COMMENT  ITS  IRRELEVANT  IF  ONE  LIFE  OR  6 MILLION  WERE LOST  -- ITS NOT ABOUT THE NUMBERS  ITS ABOUT THE  IDEOLOGY -- WE AS  HUMAN RACE ARE INCLINED TO NUMB OUT AND FORGET , AND THATS WHAT I SEE HERE ...  I RECALL A GOOD  ONE ON THE GENOCIDE IN RWANDA ..   IT LOOKED LIKE THE WHOLE WORLD WAS IGNORING  IT -- AND THE POINTED QUESTION  WAS  WHEN IT  REALLY EXPLODED  WAS  THAT  THE  " WATCHERS "   DID  NOT  KNOW  HOW  TO DEFINE  GENOCIDE ,, THEY  WERE  LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS  AND  DEBATING  WHEN  IT BECAME GENOCIDE  -- AGAIN  FACT  IS   IF  ITS  ONE   OR  ONE  HUNDRED  OR  THOUSANDS   ITS IRRELEVANT ...   WHAT  HAPPENED  IS  WHAT  WE DEFINE  TODAY AS A  HATE CRIME  .. TAKE THE  RECENT ONE  POSTED HERE ABOUT THE  " CURRY JUMPER  GANG "  WHO  BEAT  UP AND STOMPED AN ELDERLY  INDIAN MAN TO DEATH   PLENTY OF OUTRAGE ABOUT  THAT  ,,   THATS ONE  LIFE ,, ITS  WRONG  ... 
WHAT ABOUT  THE XENOPHOBIA  HERE IN SA   AGAINST THE SOMALIANS   ,, THE  GOVT  SAT  BACK AND  WATCHED   MOST PROBABLY  ALSO  COUNTING  TO  TRY DECIDE  WHEN  IT  BECAME XENOPHOBIA  AND  ULTIMATELY GENOCIDE ... 

AGAIN  I REPEAT  FORGET THE  NUMBERS   >> FORGET THE  "THEORIES "  ..... REMEMBER  THE  HATE  AND  ITS ORIGINS .. THE IDEOLOGY  AND HOW  PEOPLE CAN GET SWEPT UP IN IT ...  COMPARE THE  SCENARIOS  THEY ALL  HAVE A  COMMON  THREAD  --  A  WARNING  DONT  NUMB  OUT ....  DONT  FORGET ...
THATS MY  REALLY HEARTFELT COMMENT ..

[toonfandangl]

Sandy this is false information you have been given ............Check this site this rumor has been circulating since 2007 ..............................Frank


http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp

[georg ruf jr.]

Hi Haiko. Are you a real OMer??

[SandyB]

Thanks  Frank .. I  did not even bother to look at the links .... as said again the internet is rife with disinformation  espousing various  beliefs and persuasions  each one seeking to  sway thought ...
Again  without emotion ..   the orginal thread and intention  is lets not forget ...  what I see happening  in this day  and age and that despite  further atrocities  being performed  worldwide  is  the  forgetting ... the origins of  hate crime  in all its forms . .. hell man  as a  human being I at times in these  tricky times we live in  battle with my feelings  and  can feel the lines being blurred   at times .. I constantly remind myself  of the mistakes of the past .. and then  resolve to try never go there  and yes warn  others  to do the same ..

[Michael Alexander]

Was it not the MOTHS, that say "Lest we forget"....

or to that affect....

In essence, what happens, is that the great wars are always remembered...... the waste of life, with nothing being achieved in the long run...... as those old timers fade away, as all old timers must, the younger forget, they heed not the warnings.... and are doomed to repeat past mistakes.....

[SandyB]

On the nail  Mike " lest we not forget "    my Mom and Dad drummed this into our  mindset ..  the  messengers fade away and yes the mistakes  are repeated ..  mind you I have many good years ahead .. so will  continue to be a messenger ,,,

[toonfandangl]

'Sandy' in Australia at the Returned Services League clubs or RSL as they are commonly known every night at Nine o'clock everything stops.

Every one turns to a central point, and there is an Ode read out


At the going down of the sun...
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

There is a response from the members.

'LEST WE FORGET'



Australian Remembrance Poems
Everyone present stands in silence and the Ode from For the Fallen is recited. Note: RSL Clubs (Returned & Services League of Australia) are social clubs ...
alldownunder.com/oz-v/writers/remembrance.htm - Cached - Similar -


This is another quote that you will see on the war cenotaphs.


'THE PRICE OF FREEDOM IS ETERNAL VIGILANCE'

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. by Thomas Jefferson
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. by Thomas Jefferson. ... "Freedom is the recognition that no single person, no single authority or government has ...
www.quotedb.com/quotes/2283 - Cached - Similar -

On the Internet Sandy there are sites that try to give the truth, sometimes they do not get it right but all in all the do try............Frank

[Haiko N.]

Thanks  Frank .. I  did not even bother to look at the links ....

Right, so you didn't even bother to look at the links, after I specifically asked you to please see the links before actually spouting any nonsense about misinformation.
The major question posed by holocaust deniers isn't whether the death toll is accurate (even though it is one of the subjects brought to question), it's more in the lines of "Was there an official order or plan to wipe out all 'onerwunschte'?" (excuse spelling if wrong).
If you can provide me with an answer and evidence to back up your statement, then I will ignore the attempt at a red herring. So far, I have found NO plan or order given by Hitler.
The mere fact that I don't find any plan or order, does, I admit, not prove the non-existence thereof, so any help in finding this would be appreciated. It also doesn't prove Hitler innocent - it was Hitler's militarism which caused several wartime deaths.

So what it all boils down to is that the gas chambers were NOT used for homocidal purposes, as people like Fred Leuchter and Germar Rudolf have been put in jail for scientifically proving.
The Germans used Zyklon B gas in delousing chambers during the war. That is why you find the tell-tale blue-green residue of Cyanide inside such chambers. Why, then, does one not find said residue inside the alleged gas chambers?

If you would like to know more and don't just want to spout nonsense about conspiracy theories without knowing the true definition of "conspiracy theories", then contact me and I'll tell you more. Please don't sink to using ad hominem attacks, as this won't get anyone anywhere.

[SandyB]

Lets  just  put  this topic  to rest  ... better so for all ..

[SandyB]

Despite my response this morning  to Haiko's  reply ...   me saying  lets put this topic to rest ,  and  yes for me initially making a decision  on a personal basis to just walk away from it  and move on , not enter into further debate etc ,,  something deep inside of  me said  no   , it  will be an injustice to just  walk away , it deserves fair response ..
Back  to  the original thread  with the question  asked  ...  Is  this indeed true  ??  are  we  forgetting  that  a  war/wars happened , that atrocities were committed ,  and even in this day and age  hate  crimes and atrocities are still being commited ..and yes are we as  mankind  numbing and dumbing out ..? ?  For  me to  say "without emotion"  is easy .. to separate  emotion and  common sense is  not  always so easy ..  to write  objectively  what is coming out of ones heart  is  also not always  easy as lines  can become blurred   or  easily be misunderstood ..   I see that  outcome in the  last reply .. and yes  find it easy in my heart to forgive any misunderstanding ..
I feel  selected passages of my writing have been taken  and  understood  out  of  context .. and I  go to the "ad hominem" attacks  comment ..  I  have in  my days  when fighting for  folk done injustice ,  stood up to lawyers  using  big  words  to try beat me  a total layman  down ,  seeing this now    reminded  me  that  they  never  intimidated me and I remained  resolute  and always  got a good  and fair outcome  , anyhow  I  did  a search  on this  latin expression .. so many  definitions and  angles to the  expression  ,the one that stood out  most sensibly    was  as below ..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Definition:
An argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case; a logical fallacy that involves a personal attack. See also: tu quoque.
Etymology:
From the Latin, "against the man"
For instance, ad hominem is one of the most frequently misidentified fallacies, probably because it is one of the best known ones. Many people seem to think that any personal criticism, attack, or insult counts as an ad hominem fallacy. Moreover, in some contexts the phrase "ad hominem" may refer to an ethical lapse, rather than a logical mistake, as it may be a violation of debate etiquette to engage in personalities. So, in addition to ignorance, there is also the possibility of equivocation on the meaning of "ad hominem".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now in all honesty  I have read back on my postings and  cannot  unless I am really so  dumb  see  me  arguing on the  failings of an adversary  rather  than   the merits of the case  , or  did any personal attack  on an adversary , 
Ie :  " against the man "  absolutely not ...  instead I see  my  trying to  prod conscience,    that  we  as fellow beings have to always  have an active conscience ..  to the point of me  admitting my  failure in that many times  frustration at events  at times  makes me   want  to  cross  lines . But always remembering  to never forget past  mistakes  as a basis for  a better future ..

To reference  of   not understanding conspiracy  theory ,  I have read  and  enough and  heard enough  to have a reasonable  understanding  of the  concept .  I  did not  attempt  to say  that  the " holocaust "  or   the  "non holocaust "   was a conspiracy theory , merely  drawing attention to the fact that  the internet is   rife with   conspiracy theories sites   and  sites espousing  the  for and against  so many interests , in each case   for gain   or  to sway opinion , and  yes a  good amount of untruth floating around as well ..
Strangely enough  I  took the time  to do a search on  conspiracy theory  just  to make sure   I  was  not being  really dumb  and  yes   the first one I opened  referred to the expression  " red herring "  as well ,   I also do not see  myself trying to  throw the red herring to distract   ... 
That  I   did not bother to  look at the links ,, well I  did  not need to ,  the person I know  personally apart from showing me the  " denialist "  books  also gave me  lots of links to  look at on the internet  ,  none could sway me from  my original  stance of  where there  is  smoke  there  is a fire  , that something happened ,   and that  one life is too many ..

To  other comments  ...  to say  that  there is no evidence of a master plan  is  actually irrelevant  ,  fact is  that initially  a  religious / ethnic  grouping ,  citizens of  a country  who had not declared war  on the country   were  slowly denied  the right to conduct  life and business as normal ,  then  moved  to ghettos , and  finally   moved  to  camps ..  The same was applied  to every country occupied  , ordinary citizens excluded  unless they decided  to help  those in need of help ,,  also in the net were any another " undesirables" ..    final  result people displaced  and moved  to camps  ..  the  results of  this  a  disaster  in the  context of overcrowding and   disease spread  resulting in unnecessary loss too many  of lives  .
I  do not have to produce  evidence  of a master plan  ..  there were actions  that   point  to a misguided  hate crime  that say it all ..   
In  all writings  I made no reference  to the gas chambers    .. so see no relevant reason  for the focus there .. 

The  reference to   the man's militarism  leading to the loss of several lives , well it was not several  it was  millions of soldiers and  innocent  citizens of many countries  including his own .. we will leave  that folly there  and hope  mankind learns ...

And  now in closing ,,  Haiko .. this  is   genuinely not an  ad hominem attack , but  yes  its disturbing that  unlike myself  who  is an open book , follies ,  foibles  etc  known  to so many in this  site  ,  with an identity and a picture and  who speaks from his heart , you choose  to remain under  an unidentified name  with no picture  . This  site would  benefit from  everybody  who wants  to express opinion especially  controversial showing who they  really are ..  it would be greatly appreciated ..

[Bertie Horak]

@ Sandy - I think 99% of the members understand and appreciate your input, and value it dearly.
We have come to know you very well through your postings and meeting you in person, and there is no doubt about your character - it's been proven over and over again that you're special to many (friends, colleagues and even "Jan Alleman").

[Diana Rudd (Boehme)]

I absolutely agree with Bertie. Sandy I am also sure that 99% of us are not offended by your statements and postings. I fore one enjoy reading them and appreciate them even though I may not always reply.

[Haiko N.]

"Back  to  the original thread  with the question  asked  ...  Is  this indeed true  ??  are  we  forgetting  that  a  war/wars happened , that atrocities were committed ,  and even in this day and age  hate  crimes and atrocities are still being commited ..and yes are we as  mankind  numbing and dumbing out ..? ?"

Well, I agree that wars and atrocities should not be forgotten in the present, but what I think the Muslims of Britain are trying to tell people is that such atrocities weren't committed by the Germans against the Jews, for one.
One of the things which proved to me there is something fishy going on around the entire holocaust story is the fact that there are so many so-called "eye-witness" accounts which have been scientifically proven wrong and others which either didn't need to be proven wrong on a basis of outright hilarity or were admitted to be false.

For example, one Jewish man 'recalls' that he could tell what nationality of Jew was being burned in the crematoria by the colour of the smoke exiting the chimney.

1. Crematoria aren't supposed to smoke. That is what the technology is made for. The only smoke which is possibly emitted is from engines.
2. The colour of the smoke? That's ridiculous.

Another man claims to have seen geysers of blood spurting out of the ground for months during the Jew's time in the concentration camps.

"...and I  go to the "ad hominem" attacks  comment"

Yes, the definition is right. I apologize if my comment has come forth as an allegation. I didn't intend to make it sound like you'd already comitted the ad hominem. I only stated this request as a preliminary precaution.
I've debated and discussed this subject so many times when people start comitting all sorts of fallacies, so I only wanted to prevent such things taking place here.
Again, I apologize if it sounded like a harsh accusation.

"To reference  of   not understanding conspiracy  theory ,  I have read  and  enough and  heard enough  to have a reasonable  understanding  of the  concept . "

Perhaps, then, you could have the wrong defintion? I myself don't believe in the 9/11 conpiracy theories, even after watching documentaries like 'Zeitgeist', because there are too many inconsistencies in such theories most of the time.
When looking at the true definition of 'conspiracy theories', though, one notices that the idea that the Al-Qaeda attacked the WTC is in itself a conspiracy theory.
Any theories of conspiracies fit the bill. Not just the ones which appear to be understood by 'minorities' alone.

"I  did not  attempt  to say  that  the " holocaust "  or   the  "non holocaust "   was a conspiracy theory , merely  drawing attention to the fact that  the internet is   rife with   conspiracy theories sites   and  sites espousing  the  for and against  so many interests , in each case   for gain   or  to sway opinion , and  yes a  good amount of untruth floating around as well .."

Accepted... and I must say I agree.

"and  yes   the first one I opened  referred to the expression  " red herring "  as well ,   I also do not see  myself trying to  throw the red herring to distract   ... 
That  I   did not bother to  look at the links ,, well I  did  not need to ,  the person I know  personally apart from showing me the  " denialist "  books  also gave me  lots of links to  look at on the internet  ,  none could sway me from  my original  stance of  where there  is  smoke  there  is a fire  , that something happened ,   and that  one life is too many .. "

I see a paradox here. You say you didn't commit a red herring, but then mention yourself not looking at the links. Where after, earlier, you started talking about how the internet is rife with conspiracy theories and untruths. That is a red herring; you strayed from the subject. But it's all good.

I agree, one life would be too many.
But when looked at from a historical point of view, what does this mean?
Would it be worse if there was an entire army who killed one man or if one man killed another?
I agree, it's near impossible to tell for sure whether any one Nazi was a murderer. The possibility that at least one German had something against Jews is always there.
Would you change your stance if you found out that no Nazi murdered a Jew (or a gypsy, etc)?

The reason I brought up the "master plan" is because one cannot accuse an entire army, almost an entire country, of having murderous intentions against an entire human race without EVIDENCE. So we don't have any evidence (except "eye-witness" and fraudulent accounts extracted via torture from Nazi officers) that even ONE Jewish person was MURDERED.

"To  other comments  ...  to say  that  there is no evidence of a master plan  is  actually irrelevant  ,  fact is  that initially  a  religious / ethnic  grouping ,  citizens of  a country  who had not declared war  on the country   were  slowly denied  the right to conduct  life and business as normal ,  then  moved  to ghettos , and  finally   moved  to  camps ..  The same was applied  to every country occupied  , ordinary citizens excluded  unless they decided  to help  those in need of help ,,  also in the net were any another " undesirables" ..    final  result people displaced  and moved  to camps  ..  the  results of  this  a  disaster  in the  context of overcrowding and   disease spread  resulting in unnecessary loss too many  of lives  . "

No, they did declare war on the German state. Have you heard of the newspaper title "Judea Declares War on Germany"?
Wikipedia tries to debunk the title, but fails to do so on grounds of poor logic. I can discuss it in detail if needed.
Did you know that the concentration camps got more food near the end of the war than German citizens themselves were getting?
Did you know that the Russians also had Jews in concentration camps known as Gulags?
Did you know that Americans had Americans of Japanese descent in concentration camps?
Did you know that the Polish had Germans in concentration camps before the war and beat them to death? Wouldn't this be reason enough to invade the country?

"I  do not have to produce  evidence  of a master plan  ..  there were actions  that   point  to a misguided  hate crime  that say it all ..   
In  all writings  I made no reference  to the gas chambers    .. so see no relevant reason  for the focus there ..  "

Name one such action?
Well, the 'gas chambers' are allegedly the main means of extermination used by the Germans. What else should I focus on?

"The  reference to   the man's militarism  leading to the loss of several lives , well it was not several  it was  millions of soldiers and  innocent  citizens of many countries  including his own .. we will leave  that folly there  and hope  mankind learns ... "

Now wait. Hitler didn't start the war.
Hitler didn't cause the death of German civilians. That was courtesy of Allied bombing raids on German towns and cities, even those with absolutely NO military presence in them.
Remember, the Allies are notorious for using such extremely weak and inhumane tactics as to bomb civilian towns. Remember Hiroshima?
Maybe the real murderers are the British, just like back in the Boere-Oorlog...?

[SandyB]

Hi there Haiko .. ok firstly  thanks for being so big  as to apologise ...  it  takes  heart to do that ...  lets all do ourselves a favour  and  let this one  fade into  obscurity , we have  each had our say ,,  .. agree that there is   always disagreement   in this world , acknolwledgement thereof very healthy  , and yes if one  wants it  to be so  a  situation of agreeing to disagree ,   pretty much the situation i have with  the  colleague  and friend I mentioned , the difference in opinion  has not marred  our  mutual respect for  each others opinion  and we keep it out of  our  daily  conversation ...  he may  discuss it with likeminded and me the same  with  my like minded ...  to actually continue  with this  is I feel  a dark cul de sac  down which if we go , we  will all lose  perspective  and   use   bad words  and create bad blood  ..  each to their own ..  there is no olive branch  on  the    smileys  .. but if I could  I would say  yes heres an olive branch .  and yes in  words of the old wisdom .. "  you  welcome to sit at my table  "  you are despite  differences a thinker ...
Regards ,, Sandy

[Michael Alexander]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080106230912AAixS4y